Tom Esch Part 2: Keeping Your Word is the Foundation of Trust
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Intro:
Welcome to today’s episode, where we explore the critical intersection of leadership, communication, and organizational success.
This is PART 2 of my interview with Tom Esch, a renowned expert in workplace dynamics and conflict resolution.
Tom brings over two decades of experience in helping leaders understand the nuanced ‘people stuff’ that can make or break a business.
We’ll dive into how leadership skills, emotional intelligence, and conscious communication can transform workplace culture, prevent costly mistakes, and drive organizational performance.
Whether you’re a business owner, manager, or aspiring leader, this conversation offers invaluable insights into creating more effective, human-centered workplaces.
To get in touch with Tom:
https://eschconsulting.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@UCADFdw9POGoK5eEGFCDKufw
To Get a Copy of Tom’s Book:
https://eschconsulting.com/book/
Summary:
In this episode of the Elevator Careers Podcast, host Matthew Allred interviews Tom Esch on leadership, communication, and organizational success. Esch emphasizes the importance of personal accountability, emotional intelligence, and conscious communication in building a strong safety culture. He shares a story about a construction site where a lack of communication led to a fatal accident, highlighting the need for leaders to foster open dialogue. Esch also discusses the impact of rank and power dynamics on workplace safety and productivity, using examples from various industries. He stresses the significance of trust, empathy, and forgiveness in fostering a safe and effective work environment.
Transcript:
Matthew Allred 0:00
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Welcome to today’s episode where we explore the critical intersection of leadership, communication and organizational success. This is part two of my interview with Tom Esch, a renowned expert in workplace dynamics and conflict resolution. Tom brings over two decades of experience in helping leaders understand the nuanced people, stuff that can make or break a business. We’ll dive into how leadership skills, emotional intelligence and conscious communication can transform workplace culture, prevent costly mistakes and drive organizational performance, whether you’re a business owner, manager or aspiring leader, this conversation offers invaluable insights into creating more effective, human, centered workplaces. Tom Welcome to the show.
Tom Esch 1:28
Thank you, Matt
Matthew Allred 1:30
Thank you. I’m excited to have you back. I got a chance to read your book and kind of dig into some of those things you were saying. And I think it’s fascinating. It certainly applies to the to the work at hand. And you know, you called it personal accountability and power, and how contractors can build a stronger safety culture, which I think is fascinating. Certainly safety is interesting, but the culture piece, right, that safety is actually a culture, I think, is I just hadn’t thought of it that way. But in it, you give three points to growing up and taking safety seriously. You’re talking about putting on big boy pants and being a good communicator, staying focused on the job. Talk to us about each of those as we just kind of dive into this topic
Tom Esch 2:24
Sure, well that each of those kind of goes back to a story that happened all those big boy pants, good communicators stay focused on the job. Those are all actual things that business owner said, probably now, what? 10 years ago? 10-11, years ago, here in Minnesota, southern Minnesota, I was leading up going to be leading a demo saw safety program for an underground contractor. That’s a saw that weighs about 30 pounds, has a lot of RPMs and power runs a 14 or 12 inch diamond blade and potentially very dangerous tool. So I was, I was demoing this tool, which I had sold for at least 12 years and knew a lot about. And the owner was talking to the guys, his company of maybe 8090, guys, at the annual meeting. And he said we had too many injuries last year guys. He said some guy yelled at some guy, and then he and the other and the guy who got yelled at got injured and, you know, put on your big boy pants. And he said, he said, be a be a good communicator. You know, put on your big boy pants, do the right thing. You know, grow up. Basically, you’re sort of scolding them in a way. But he was also giving a really interesting message. And I’m sitting there listening to this owner. I’m about to ready to get up to give technical safety. And I’m thinking, this guy is talking about culture. He’s talking about communication. He’s talking about emotional maturity. He’s also talking about he didn’t say it, but he was basically talking about what happens to the brain when we get yelled at, unless you’re a Buddhist monk, which are proven to have some of the least reactive brains by a study at the University of Wisconsin, Madison years ago, or you’re really emotionally mature and not afraid of this other person, you’re going to react and basically you’re going to go into a fight or flight state. The amygdala, the reptilian brain, gets activated when we’re yelled at or when we’re threatened in any way, and getting yelled at can be a threat, even if somebody is just raising their voice on a job site. Hey. But again, you have this little now. Men are great at hiding it. Then they almost never looked panicked. But the if you, if you put a functional MRI machine on the brain, you would show. Almost no activity in the prefrontal cortex. So I was, I’m sitting there listening with all that I know about brains and communication and emotional intelligence, and I’m like this owner is talking about culture and what I’m passionate about doing, which is helping people in high intensity, dangerous situations communicate with more care, with more humanity, with more grace.
Matthew Allred 5:24
So I think let me, let me pause you for a second. I think what you’re saying is that if I am not communicating with with the pause, sorry, with the with the grace and the just, and I go out and I just kind of attack somebody with my words. And they’re more likely to to respond with the the reptilian brain, versus a conscious, oh, let me think through it, type of response, which is, you know, if they’re not thinking, in other words, they’re just reacting, it’s not going to be an ideal situation. Is that fair to say?
Tom Esch 5:57
Very fair. And there’s a time for a yell if your four year old is crossing an eight lane highway, that’s the right time to yell. If you can’t get to them and scoop them up, there’s a time for yelling and there’s a time to kick in and have that reptilian brain go but not on a job site in the middle of the day where you know, in construction, as you know, Matt yelling and tempers are pretty common. People are under high stress, you know, deadlines, traffic trouble, their home life might be a mess, and they bring all that and boom, they’re yelling at somebody
Matthew Allred 6:35
And if they’re operating heavy or dangerous equipment, you know, the less thinking is not a good combination there
Tom Esch 6:44
Exactly, exactly. And the owner was basically saying, This guy got yelled this guy yelled at the guy, the guy who got yelled at got injured because he wasn’t thinking right. Like the owner knew he knew enough that he didn’t spell it all up. But he’s like yelling isn’t a good way to create a safe work culture. Guys, be a put your big boy pants on. You know, what you could say is, you know, kind of a slam in a way, but it was, that was a clever way to say it.
Matthew Allred 7:14
Tell me how you interpret that. I mean, you talked about the Buddhists. And, you know, most I think that’s awesome that they’ve they’ve worked and maybe meditated enough that their minds aren’t as reactive in that way. But how would you interpret putting your big boy pants on and responding in more mature ways? Perhaps
Tom Esch 7:39
Yeah, he’s saying, be an adult. Don’t act like a don’t yell like a little you know, kid on the parking lot Who’s mad at his buddy. Put on your mature adult pants. Operate from the adult ego state, right? Thank you. Not that you know, feel transactional analysis. You got your adult ego state. Then above that, you got your parental and then you got your rebel reactive child. So you got sort of the angry parent yelling at the rebel child, instead of the big boy pants would be the adult ego state, the mature ego state, you can still have some emotion, but not not yelling or demeaning someone, which often happens, hey, dumb a**, what are you doing, right? That’s very common phrase.
Matthew Allred 8:32
It’s very condescending, right? I think what I’m taking away from what you’re saying is approach them like an equal. You got two adults here. You don’t need, to try to, you know, offend somebody or put them down in order to get a message across. You know, maybe they, maybe they do need to pay attention to safety, or maybe they do need to put on their hard hat, or whatever the case may be. Yes, you don’t have to, yeah, pretend like you’re you’re better than them, in order to convey that message
Tom Esch 9:04
Yep, better, smarter, stronger, the seniority. And you know, of course, it was a higher ranking guy yelling at a lower ranked guy. That’s a whole nother piece of my work and my thinking.
Matthew Allred 9:17
Second question Tom is, is you talk a lot about rank, which I was fascinated by this idea of power, and again, you use the word rank, and how that effect. I guess initially, I wanted to see if you could just kind of dissect power, seniority, and rank.
Tom Esch 9:37
Sure, there’s a lot of definitions of power, definitions of rank
Matthew Allred 9:44
As you, as you see it, yeah, as your
Tom Esch 9:46
Seniority is the simplest word there. But I would pair seniority with rank, and I would pick say Rollo May’s definition of power is the ability to cause or prevent a change, which I think Is awesome and simple. Power is the ability to cause or prevent a change. And rank is a different animal. Rank is kind of the way power gets structured. Think of like the pecking order with chickens, sure, or, or, you know, the structure within a military division. You know you’re gonna have rank again. You know the Catholic Church, which is my background, as you know, very hierarchical male organizations, strict hierarchy, that there’s a rank. So what is rank? Rank is simply, it’s a lot of things, but in, my approach and study of rank is informed by my, one of my teachers, Dr Arnold Mindell, who has a very expansive definition of rank. So it says huge his idea of rank is that it’s, it’s both the pecking order, the positional, you know, ranking, the position that you have within an organization, but it’s also your internal rank, your internal strength, your internal power, in a sense, to be able to influence other people. So if I am maybe low ranked on a job site, maybe I’ve only been there a month, but I’m confident, maybe I’m a former college football player. I’m big, I’m outspoken, I’m gregarious, and I’m funny, and I’m and I’m pretty good at what I’m doing. I’m going to have quick rank on that job site, partly because of my personality, not because of my position. I’m the new man. I’m the low man on the totem pole. I’m going to get the crappy jobs. So power is the ability to cause/prevent change. Rank is the way power gets structured in organizations or in an individual. And you know, there’s lots of different types of rank, but I’d say rank and seniority are kind of similar, especially positional rank is almost the same as what we call seniority in construction. It’s how many years have you been around? How good are you at driving a backhoe? How much do the other guys respect you? You know, when I when I was selling supplies, I was one of the least ranked in the warehouse when I ran the warehouse because I didn’t know how to run a forklift very skillfully. I mean, I did run it, but there was always two other two or three other guys who could run it way better than I could. So I had low rank with with the forklift, and I eventually did crash it into the garage, Matt and I, and I was quickly moved into sales.
Matthew Allred 12:39
I was gonna say, they took your license away, right? It’s like, all right
Tom Esch 12:43
into sales, which was, which was good, but is that useful at all with the power, the rank, the seniority?
Matthew Allred 12:49
Yeah. I mean, I think what, what’s intriguing for me is, you, you’ve brought in some different categories and some different you know, it’s not just about my title on the org chart, if people like me. If people respect me, I have more, more power to to like you said, to influence a change, to maybe even push back on the boss and say, boss, we don’t want to do it that way. Or if I’m even if I’m the boss, if I maybe don’t have a lot of confidence in my own decision making. You know, my guys are gonna outrank me, or, in a way, right? They’re gonna, they’re gonna out overpower, yeah, you know, just, just have more power. And I, you know, I think we see that in different organizations, different times. And I’ve heard different, you know, inmates are running the prison, whatever you’ve heard different phrases, I guess. My question in regard to that, you know, specifically around safety, how have you seen safety affected by some of these power dynamics? You know, rank?
Tom Esch 13:53
Sure, yeah, very, in some moments, very dramatically and deeply, I have a number of stories, and if you’ve seen, you’ve seen my book, there’s a story of a man who was killed in a trench because the General Superintendent made a change in the plan for how they were going to retrieve these five trench boxes in a 30 foot deep trench. And everybody knew it was dangerous. Everybody knew it would have been safer to do it mechanically with the backhoe and rigging them up, which they could have done, but he thought it was quicker and cheaper to go down and do it by hand. So he said, I’m going down. And a laborer said, I’ll go with you, boss. And a Hispanic guy went down, and he was lower. And so when that soil collapsed, he was the one killed. No one spoke up. And you know, I know the safety guy, and I know that they had a really good safety plan. They had really good pre construction planning, even though it was a complex, difficult job. TheyChanged the plan. Nobody spoke up. And the safety guy that I know went to each person you know and said, said, Matt, did you know that was a dangerous decision? Yes, I did. Did you speak up and say anything? No, I didn’t. Joe, did you know that that was dangerous? Yes, I did. Did you speak up? No, I didn’t. Sam, did you know that he went to every person more than 10, and out of that developed a whole program that caterpillar now sells called “Speak up, Listen up,” which is basically a program designed to help people speak up. Help people listen up. I’d say it’s a very basic, fundamental program. It doesn’t get to the deeper reasons why people don’t speak up. You could train people all day long. Come on, Matt, just speak up. Well, why on that job site Didn’t anyone feel able to say, wait a minute, Boss, I’m not sure that’s a great decision, right? Let’s rethink it, right? And why is that? Because the unwritten rule in construction, as everybody knows, is you don’t speak up to the boss. You don’t interrupt or try to influence the person in authority. In many cultures. Now, that’s changing slowly, and in the best cultures, that’s very different, and it is more open to feed. There are cultures around, I’ve been in some of those too, but, yeah, the rank thing, it can be huge. You might have a brand new guy who really knows a lot about something, but he doesn’t feel he has the, doesn’t have the influence to say anything, and he can quickly get cut down, right? He might try to speak up. What do you know? Man? What do you know? You know? Get out of here? Well, you know, and he’s going to navigate those relationships carefully. And generally, you respect these unwritten rules. They’re, they’re like, stronger than the written rules
Matthew Allred 16:56
Sure. Well, it’s, it’s, it’s risky, right? I mean, if I’m the low man on the totem pole, and maybe I haven’t even been there very long, and I’m challenging, you know, the foreman that’s been at it for 25 years. I mean, it huge amount of risk for me to say, Yeah, I don’t, I don’t think that’s safe. Well, I have no credibility if, especially if I’m new to the, you know, to the force, and it’s like you’re being lazy, right? There’s, there’s all kinds of reasons why I would now be suspect, you know, we’ll just get down there and do it, right? And so, yeah, I guess it’s human nature, right? That these dynamics are there, and I appreciate you just kind of pointing them out and really helping, helping me see them, because I, you know, I’ve been in those types of situations, but I think it’s got to become conscious in order for anybody to start speaking up, right? Why didn’t they speak up? Well, I’ve been in situations where, yeah, I probably should have spoken up and and didn’t. And so it’s almost got to be a and I guess that’s part of what you do, right? Is you train different groups, different companies, different workforces, to not only to speak up, but you got to train the boss, the foreman, whoever, to be willing to listen once somebody does speak up.
Tom Esch 18:17
Yes. And there’s a great book that covers this better than my book. Have you? Have you read the book by Malcolm Gladwell, Outliers?
Matthew Allred 18:29
If I have, it’s been quite a while, because I know I really remember reading some of his stuff.
Tom Esch 18:34
There’s a brilliant chapter on what happened in the Korean airline world some 20 plus years ago, where there was a number of crashes, I want to say, seven crashes in a short period of time, 10 years or less, and they were about ready to go out of business. And they brought in some consultants to figure out what’s going on in the cockpits, that these planes are crashing so many and people being killed, and they realized that there was, there was nothing close to any feedback between the captain and the CO pilots. And they know it’s a best practice in almost any culture, construction or the airplane culture, if you can have feedback back and forth, and open conversation, you’re going to have more safety as a general idea, most people would instantly get that. Yes, Hey boss, there’s fog there. Hey, Captain, are you aware of that? Hey, I’m noticing this. Hey, the fuel gage is this.
Matthew Allred 19:37
So you’re saying even within, even within the cockpit, the the co pilot wasn’t comfortable talking to the guy next to him and saying, Hey, there’s a telephone pole and you’re about to hit it
Tom Esch 19:48
Not at all in the Korean world, as I’ve understand it through Gladwell eyes, and I’m pretty sure he’s a pretty smart cookie. It’s probably not a perfect story, but I think it’s accurate that in Korean culture, I know that there are nine layers of social status or rank. Wow. Okay. And if you know Korean culture, there’s nine different layers, very clear, almost like a caste system near the top and in the in the cockpit, the pilot is kind of like at the top of the pecking order. The CO pilots are kind of like nobody’s. The Captain is like a god in that pre you know, the culture of long ago in the Korean Air world, it’s changed quite a bit since they made an intervention and they said, We’ve got to change the culture in the cockpit. And they did. It took a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of energy. They’re basically changing the rewriting the cultural rules. When you’re in the cockpit here, when you’re flying a plane, get rid of those nine layers of hierarchy, or whatever layers are within that cockpit. You’re all equal in terms of seeing, noticing things. The captain still has status. He’s got rank to make certain decisions, but you have every right to give your input, every right to say, Captain, I’m not sure that’s right. Hey, wait a minute. I think we’re going to need to slow down. We’re coming in at a tight landing here with a lot of wind and on a short runway. I think we should change it to this or that. So, yeah, very dramatic situation that Gladwell retails, and I retail it in my book, because I think it’s fascinating, and the idea that you can change a culture dramatically in the interest of safety. And of course, then the results for many, many years were awesome. No crashes, no near miss crashes. Like phenomenal results. So that’s interesting to me, and it translates directly to construction to me, where you have, you have this hierarchy, and you have sort of the General Superintendent, the foreman, who can act or be like a kind of God. And the ego gets mixed up in the, you know, the I’m the man and I’m, you know, and it is mostly men. The women are coming in. Women are coming in and interrupting things in an exciting way. In my mind. Anyway, that’s fascinating to me. The Korean story.
Matthew Allred 22:17
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I’ve heard, I’ve heard some, some, you know, within the elevator industry, some, some interesting stories of, you know, the mechanic has its helper, and the helpers maybe a one, two year apprentice or something, and, and I know that safety has come a long way, right? But to your point, it has to be not only taught, but continually taught that, that there is a time and you know, if you don’t feel safe, right, you got to speak up. You got to be willing to say it. Or if you are worried about somebody else, there’s, there’s a reason you’re feeling that way. You can’t let that stop you from, you can’t let your fear stop you from from speaking up and saying, Hey, here’s, here’s my concern this, this is not safe, or, you know, we don’t have the right equipment, or whatever the case may be. And it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s an interesting journey. And I’m sure, yeah, you see that all the time, in the construction space. So obviously, this rank, the power as we’re talking about, certainly is true for safety. I’m curious, how have you seen it also affect, like directly affect bottom line, maybe even outside of safety?
Tom Esch 24:01
Oh, how does rank impact culture outside of safety?
Matthew Allred 24:06
Yeah, or even the bottom line, right? So I think you had mentioned something about in a previous conversation, something about, you know, somebody’s about to lose a contract because of one of the people on their team and they had to have a conversation. Do you remember which one I’m talking about?
Tom Esch 24:25
I do. Yeah, the the high ranking estimator who sometimes made people feel stupid and barked at people now and again. Pretty high rank because he’s he’s landing the big projects, the multi million dollar projects are being landed. He’s landing them, and he’s pretty high ranked dude and and no one’s at great risk of getting run over by a skid steer, crushed by a truck, or falling off the 20th floor with this guy because he’s estimating he’s in the office, but there’s serious risk of losing projects, and partly because he didn’t manage his emotions very well, and he was very much old school, you know, bark at people, put people down, you know, I mean, another client had a had a guy, a senior foreman, who would regularly like, get the paperwork from guys at the end of the day and say, This is bull crap. And he’d tear it up, fold it in a ball, throw it in the garbage. Some guys work, you know, reporting the job, you know, writing numbers down and or estimating. But, but this estimator was clearly misusing his rank. The owner kind of afraid to interrupt him, afraid to disturb him. Like many owners and sometimes the worst actors are the best producers, right? The owners like that guy’s great, you know, high performers, right? And who is it? Somebody, talks about don’t call them high performers, Call them jerks, because, I mean, they might make you a lot of money, but they’re not really high performers. In the modern world, the high performers are all of that, and they have good people skills, and they treat people fairly, and they’re good at not making others feel stupid, or if they bark at anyone, it better be for the right reason, and it better be carefully done. And he wasn’t doing that. The owner was afraid to talk to him, and I coached that owner to eventually talk to this guy. This is good eight months ago or so now, they have they had one conversation, and as I hear it, there’s been no bad behavior since. Now, sometimes that bad behavior just goes underground for a while and comes back up worse, and sometimes people actually make a shift, and that’s enough to just have an intervention and to have somebody say something
Matthew Allred 27:03
Yeah. I think maybe he didn’t realize just how close they were to losing the contract. Or maybe they didn’t really, he didn’t realize just how, you know, impactful that behavior was on, you know, on the client, or whatever the case was.
Tom Esch 27:20
Yeah, he was, he was not real aware of his own impact. And this, actually, this goes with high rank. Matt, it’s very interesting to me, the higher your rank, often, the lower your awareness for how you impact other people and and it kind of makes intuitive sense. Also the king is not necessarily paying attention to everybody’s feelings back at the castle or the peasants down in the village. He’s just trying to keep the enemies away, keep the people fed, keep the Queen happy, like he’s not worried. So in this case, this high ranking guy estimator, wasn’t worried about the feelings of the other young people he wasn’t worried about. He underestimated, you know, the feelings of the client. They were trying to engage in this multi million, you know, several multi million dollar different projects, and the owner finally had the talk with the guy. And the owner would occasionally have to jump in, intervene, you know, and do something to save a project, a very, very lucrative project, and he’s not having to do that anymore, because the guy is acting with more awareness and and being more, you know, professional in his behavior.
Matthew Allred 28:36
That’s awesome. I think that that’s the to me, that’s, that’s a huge insight, just awareness. Because, you know, as we’re talking through this, I’m thinking through, you know, different times in my life, I was on a as, like, a nonprofit, but I was on the board, and I remember being surprised at times that people would, you know, approach me with almost, like, deferentially, like I had some kind of power. It’s like it was just for me. It surprised me that I had this power because I didn’t know it. So I think just making people aware, sometimes, like you talk about the you know, the higher your rank, the less aware. I think as parents, I think as a business owner, it surprised me sometimes just how much of an impact I have on some of my employees. And it’s almost kind of scary sometimes to think, oh, wow, if I say this wrong, if I react wrong, if I put too much emotion into what I say, Wow, I can do a lot more damage than I even realized I didn’t know.
Tom Esch 29:42
Yeah, yeah, the role that we’re in has more power than we know. And it’s almost like the higher we are ranked, and the higher the role, the less awareness we have of how much people you use the A key word that I haven’t said yet, and that’s deference. We. Have deference. We give special treatment to I also didn’t use the word privilege. I don’t love the word privilege. It gets mixed up with racial conversations and different things, but rank is really connected to privilege. You have certain privileges. You’re on the board of this nonprofit. You have access to information and to people making decisions, and even if it’s a little nonprofit, it might be significant. And the people trying to get the grant money from you, or whatever the work is are, are like, we need that. You know, $100,000 food stamp program Matt, and they’re going to give you deference. They’re going to show you the nicest seat in the place, they’re going to buy you a really expensive glass of wine if they can afford it, and somebody else not on the board, like, who are they? You know, they’re not so, yeah, the phrase I like better than privileges with rank is unconscious advantages. Now, sometimes they’re unconscious, sometimes they’re conscious, but I this was created by a friend of mine named Tony Signorelli. He’s a writer and a thinker and a former corporate consultant, super smart, super successful guy, and he and he talks about unconscious advantages, which I think takes a little bit of the stigma, or the there’s some connotations around the word privilege, like, because you might say to me, Tom, well, you’re a business owner, you’re a middle, upper, middle class guy. Boy, are you privileged. And I’m like, What do you mean privileged? I grew up marginal. I work my butt off. I work every day. You know, this is what a lot of entrepreneurs will say. What do you mean? You know, you’re a white guy, you’re privileged, you’re middle, upper class white guy. You have whatever you want. You know, you drive a nice car, you go on vacation. You’re privileged. You’re like privileged? You know, I don’t come from wealth. I’m not. You know, almost nobody thinks. Elon Musk, you’re privileged. Elon, no, I’m not. I work for this and billions of dollars, yeah, but I’m not privileged, you know.
Matthew Allred 32:12
Sorry, I interrupted you. Go ahead and
Tom Esch 32:14
Yeah, does he have unconscious advantage? You bet your booty. As do I.
Matthew Allred 32:20
As well, and it’s and it’s easy, I think, to look at others and judge what we think is their, you know, unconscious, advantage. And yet, I think, because it’s unconscious, and like I said a few minutes ago, I didn’t realize, didn’t know, still don’t know that I fully understand what mine are and what’s the responsibility I have in how I act and how I come across to affect others lives and I’m curious as we, as we kind of tease this apart a little bit if,you know someone who has a lot of rank, let’s say somebody approaches them and says, Hey, I don’t feel comfortable about this. This feels unsafe for it. You know, do you ever feel like they lose credibility or lose respect if they actually listen to someone lower in rank? Or do you think the opposite is the case if the boss actually listens to the newbie? Does that? Does that? Does he lose face in front of the team? Or what are your thoughts?
Tom Esch 33:23
Yeah, it depends what school that boss is going to, if that boss is going to the old school, absolutely listening to a lower ranked person lowers your power in the old school. Of course it does also if, if you’re encouraging me to be aware of my emotions and be respectful of emotions and sensitive to emotions or somebody’s disposition. In the old school, that doesn’t fly, that doesn’t grow anybody’s rank, but in the new school, however we define that, I think you know what I mean. In the new school, where there’s younger people or more forward thinking, or, I would say, scientifically based thinking leaders that know emotional intelligence is real. It’s one of the most important things out there and that, and if they have power intelligence, which is a phrase coined by one of my teachers, I have to mention Dr Julie Diamond, in case anyone’s listening or wants to really read a great book, Julie diamond wrote a book called power, a user’s guide. Julie is, is a huge, huge proponent of this, you know, the same the same stuff, using your power with as much awareness as you can. And in the new school, you grow your power by listening to lower rank, depending on how you listen. And you know, if you’re the top ranked General Superintendent with 80 people on a job, you can’t listen to everybody all day long, but somebody really sharp that, you know, maybe they’re new, but they’re really sharp, and they have an insight, and you listen to that, and that makes a difference in the job. Maybe it’s more profitable, it’s safer, you know, I think in the new school, it’s like the Navy SEALs. When the Navy SEALs are done with an operation, I’m told, they sit in a circle and they take their first they take their stripes off at the door, and then they sit in a circle and they act as if there’s no rank. And it’s one reason I think the Navy Seals have a pretty impressive culture, and they’re highly touted everywhere as an really incredible culture, getting incredible results, not all the time, but often, partly because they debrief in a way where there’s no rank, there’s no retaliation. Anyone can speak honestly to anyone, and they’re encouraged to do so. And the leaders, who I would say are in the new school, know that they will grow their power and their rank and grow their strength and grow their capacity by listening to the to the younger people, to the newer people, to the I’ll tell you one more story that comes from my Catholic background, that the Benedictine monks that have been around more than 1000 years, the Benedictines had a rule that when they got together for their meetings, their community meetings, which they had regularly, they would let the young monks speak first. The novice monks got the floor first, which I think is brilliant, because if the old season monk speaks and says, Well, we need to do this. That’s the way this in our the new monks are going to be like, Well, I’m not going to say anything that that season
Nothing to be said, right?
What can I say? Who am I? You know that. So they say, No, the new ones, we want to hear your thoughts first, that’s like listening to the low rank talk that that’s an old school that was new school.
Matthew Allred 37:07
It’s a very old school, right? But it’s, but it is, like some tried and true wisdom there
Tom Esch 37:12
Wisdom Exactly, yes.
Matthew Allred 37:15
Like that. I like that. It’s, you know, I was, I was talking with a friend of mine who’s does some business coaching, and he was talking about how listening to those of lower rank is important, because you want to understand what their thinking process is, right? Instead of just, instead of just giving them the answer, asking them, you know, come up with three, three solutions that you think might work, and then why do you think those might work? And what do you think might work the best? And and trying to what do you I think he even called the holy grail of what is the thinking process. And so, you know, kind of back to this new school. Instead of being a command, you know, down from the from the top, it’s like, well, let’s at least understand what they’re coming up with, so that I can understand where their thinking process is, and then I actually have more opportunity to influence the thinking process and hence their development and their growth and their contribution, because I’ve allowed myself to be open and approachable versus just, you’re going to do it my Way, and you’re going to like it kind of attitude
Tom Esch 38:24
No. And that’s the world we’re in. We need the thinking of the young people and the best leaders. Ask the right questions, and I like what you said. They’re they’re not only encouraging some new ideas, but they’re listening for how the new person thinks differently. And, they’re they’re open to a different process. And boy, I think the world needs this right now. I think we need all kinds of new thinking on all kinds of new levels. And I think the wisest leaders know how to do that. That stuff takes time and energy. And I realize it’s, it’s not always practical. And a lot of construction people would say that’s a bunch of hogwash. Get it done. What do you mean? I’m not gonna ask this guy questions. I’m gonna tell him what the heck to do. Or, you know, that’s often the attitude in the construction world. Can be tough that way, and it’s one reason. It’s one of the slowest to change. It’s a it’s a dinosaur. It’s, it’s almost slower than the Catholic Church to change.
Matthew Allred 39:26
Well, I understand. I mean, on one hand, you know, there, there are things that need to get done, right? Hey, you need to flatten this out so we can put asphalt on it, right? I mean, that’s got, it’s got to be compacted before we, you know, pour the cement, whatever the case may be, but, but I do think to your point, it’s important to understand where people are at, and actually to be able to grow as an organization, or grow as a as a team, you know, be being willing to hear people, find out where they’re at, and then you can, can lead them from there, if you’re. You know, if you don’t meet them where they’re at, you can’t really lead them from there. You can just kind of boss them around until they get sick of you and leave and you start over.
Tom Esch 40:08
And there is a there is another aspect to the sort of, as I’m thinking, what’s needed now in the sort of old school, or the senior guy maybe talking to the younger guy, the guy who’s over 50 is a different animal than the guy who’s under 25 for sure, and this comes up a lot, and there’s a lot of tension between the generations. And in general, what I hear is the senior generations, the baby boomer or close to the baby boomer world, have a lot of judgment and difficulty with the younger generations who are on their phone too much. Don’t want to work hard, don’t want to get their hands dirty. Want to know too much. Wanted too many atta boys. They want lots of praise, right? They want to know how their job contributes to the whole company’s mission. I mean, these are some stereotypes, but they’re also pretty true, and there’s a rank thing in there, and sometimes even though the 22 year old doesn’t know a third a 10th of what the 55 year old guy knows, or the 55 year old woman knows and, and yet the young person, there’s a lot of confidence in some of our young people, where they will speak up and they will say what they mean in there. So, it’s complex. It’s not there’s, some nuance to the sort of new, brand new person who’s cautious and careful, right? Some of the young 20 year olds are very bold and very strong, and they will leave, they will walk off the job and go do DoorDash, like my son has done. So that’s just a nuance there with the age thing and the generation thing in rank, it gets, it gets there’s some complexities within it. There’s not so simple.
Matthew Allred 42:05
Yeah, no, I love that. I think one of the, honestly, one of the most impactful teachings in your book that that I found was, you know, you’re talking about building trust, and in fact, you say the inability to express empathy for others and ourselves is a significant detriment to our capacity to build trusting relationships, and trusting relationships are required for optimal safety accountability, and I think that’s really what we’re getting at with this. This part of the conversation is just that, whether you’re 22 or 62 or you’re the boss or you’re the you know, very bottom of the we’ve got to be able to build trust, or we can’t. We can’t do anything, right? We can’t build a house, we can’t build a road, we can’t build an elevator. We can’t, build a company or or really accomplish anything, unless we can build some trust. And I think that’s really what this is getting at. Is, my hope, at least, is that leaders can become more open, more willing to hear and, you know, listen to what’s going on, find out where your people are at, whereas, you know, the younger people, maybe they do need to ask them some questions or be heard, so that they can develop trust, and then together we can, we can do what we need to do. Obviously, the work’s got to get done.
Tom Esch 43:28
Yeah, trust is key, super important. There’s a Minnesotan, I’m from Minnesota, and there’s a Minnesotan named David Horsager, has made his whole living on the idea of trust and has built probably one of the most impressive bodies of work and teaching and writing on the concept of trust within organizations. And he’s very successful, very, very solid, interesting guy, and some I don’t know if I quote him or not in my book, but I, but I look to him as one of the, one of the key teachers on something that’s so, seemingly so obvious but often missing in some of our cultures. Matt and well, and especially, yeah, go ahead. Sorry,
Matthew Allred 44:13
No, especially if you know, if you’re working for a company that likes to lay off people, right? I mean, I used to be in corporate America, and by the the third round of layoffs. You know, I happen to be on that list, but I’m just saying it’s hard to trust when no trust has been built. So let’s you know as we, as we kind of wrap up the conversation, what would you say is, maybe the number one way you have found to to help build that trust?
Tom Esch 44:43
It’s pretty simple, in a way, Matt, it’s it’s giving your word and keeping it, and when you can’t keep it. I mean, if we could give our word and keep it 100% of the time, that’s the best way to build trust. But the truth is, you and I are both not always going to be. 100% on our word. We’re not we’re imperfect people. We might accidentally double book and we don’t get online together. But the best way do what you say you’re going to do, and when you don’t, when there’s a breakdown, own the breakdown and say, Matt, I told you I’d be here at at one o’clock. I forgot all about it. I broke down. Keep the excuse short. Keep the story about what dog chewed up, what homework paper is super short, and say, I recommit, and then recommit and show up and be there for the person. I think that’s I think that’s one of the best ways to build trust and and then you get all the other messy things about being human thrown in there that the certain people just bother us from the day we meet them, they trigger something in us. So I’d say the the this one end of the trust pool is give your word and keep it clean up your breakdowns when you have them. And the other deep, the deepest end of the trust pool, I would say, is to forgive everyone who’s ever hurt you and to be completely clean, or to be as to clean your clean your filter out for the potential bad behavior of others or breakdowns of others. You know that if somebody says they’re going to show up and they don’t, it’s not personal. I don’t you know if I’m personally hurt because you miss an appointment with me, I have something to look at, and it’s and it’s not about Matt Allred missing one appointment because you’ve made every one. It’s about me, so that the deep end of the pool is is dealing with our deeper, what some call our broken toes, that old injury, right? And that’s that’s often what happens on a job site. They may not be aware, but somebody reminds them of somebody who hurt them, and if you can forgive that someone who hurt you, then the person who shows up the day, looking like that person who hurt you and sounding like that person who hurt you has a lot less power. And that’s important, I think, for building trust and for creating safety.
Matthew Allred 47:21
That’s huge. So, yeah, really, what I’m hearing is, you know, like, say, give you word, keep your word. And when you don’t keep your word own, it, apologize. But the other piece is like, you say, deeper, but it’s do, do your work, right? If you’re triggered by so and so, because they remind you of somebody who used to annoy you, then do the deeper work. Look inside. Do the forgiveness. Do the do the processes you need to do to get over that. So that doesn’t keep working away on you.
Tom Esch 47:51
And I just awareness that that deep work is sometimes really difficult and sometimes seemingly impossible. And you know, you use the word annoy you, sometimes it’s a lot worse than annoy you. For sure, somebody was physically beaten, women were raped, men were raped like that. That level of stuff happens that’s part of the fabric of life, and it’s part of part of what we somebody who just raises their voice at us, and we were yelled at a lot as a kid. That’s going to be a painful thing if we haven’t dealt with that original pain. Trauma is what it’s called. We hear a lot of people talking about, heal your trauma, deal with your trauma. I even hear the construction guys talking about, want to heal my trauma like what you want to what? All right? Amen, brother
Matthew Allred 48:43
We’ve all got it right. That’s the like you say, fabric of life. We all have stuff. We all have things that, yep, have been traumatic regardless. So that’s right, we’re all in it together. Tom, thank you so much. This has been very enjoyable. I love talking with you. Love your insights and appreciate you being here.
Tom Esch 49:03
Well, likewise, Matt, you’re a super kind man, and I really value what you’re doing in the elevator world. We’ve had a little project together. I wish you ongoing success, and let’s connect again soon.
Matthew Allred 49:16
Sounds great. Thanks Tom.
Tom Esch 49:18
You’re welcome.
Matthew Allred 49:19
Thank you for listening to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred group, a leader in elevator industry recruiting. Please visit our YouTube channel at Elevator Careers, or check us out online at elevator careers.net. Please like and subscribe and until next time, stay safe.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai