Elevators, Codes, and Consequences: Lessons from 55 Years in the Industry | Lee Rigby

Today’s guest is Lee Rigby, an elevator code expert who has spent more than 55 years in the elevator industry as a mechanic, contractor, inspector, instructor, consultant, and now expert witness. In this episode, Lee shares insights from decades of interpreting and teaching elevator codes and explains some of the industry’s most common misconceptions about modernization and code compliance. We also discussed what years of expert witness work have taught him about the role safety practices and documentation play when accidents lead to litigation.

Transcript:

Lee Rigby (00:00)
In fact, I’ve heard people say that when you do a modernization, you have to bring everything up to code, which is just not so. in most jurisdictions, elevators have to meet the code that was in effect when it was initially installed,

and at each alteration.

Matt Allred (00:14)
that sounds very complex, right? Let’s say you’ve done six

Lee Rigby (00:16)
Yes.

Matt Allred (00:16)
alterations so you got six or seven different code eras that you that you have to refer to. Is it just easier to say, if we’re gonna mod this, we’re gonna bring it up to current code and that way we don’t have to think about seven different versions

Lee Rigby (00:27)
Well, yes, it would be much easier if you did that, sure. There are some things probably that you wouldn’t be able to change.

But obviously, the more alterations you make and the more you bring it up to the current code, the less of that chain of codes you have to keep.

Matt Allred (00:40)
Hello and welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group. I am your host, Matt Allred.

Matt Allred (00:49)
Does your workforce need a lift? At the Allred Group, we are committed to connecting your company with top talent that matches your need. Give us a call at 404-890-0445.

Matt Allred (01:02)
Today’s guest is Lee Rigby, an elevator code expert who has spent more than 55 years in the elevator industry as a mechanic, contractor, inspector, instructor, consultant, and now expert witness. In this episode, Lee shares insights from decades of interpreting and teaching elevator codes and explains some of the industry’s most common misconceptions about modernizations and code compliance. We also discussed what years of expert witness work have taught him about the role safety practices and documentation play in

when accidents lead to litigation.

Matt Allred (01:33)
Lee, welcome to the show.

Lee Rigby (01:34)
Well, thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

Matt Allred (01:38)
Yeah, no, I’m I’m excited to to able to talk to you. It’s it’s funny, I’ve been hearing your your name for years, right? And then to finally get a chance to connect is something I’ve been looking forward to.

Lee Rigby (01:48)
Me as well.

Matt Allred (01:49)
Awesome, awesome. Well and and obviously you’ve got a you got a long run. I mean, you you said you got your start maintaining ordnance elevators on an aircraft carrier during the Vietnam era. And I’m just curious what lessons from working in the middle of the ocean still influence how you look at elevators today?

Lee Rigby (02:05)
Yeah, that was back in 70, 71. Probably the most important thing I learned was just perseverance. You

Matt Allred (02:11)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Rigby (02:12)
know, when you’re out there in the middle of the ocean, you can’t just call for support. You can’t just get a part in overnight or something like that. We had to figure out how to find the problem and fix the problem, even if we had to make our own parts on board.

Matt Allred (02:25)
Yeah, you’ve got to invent the invent the solution sometimes, right?

Lee Rigby (02:28)
Sometimes, yes, sir.

Matt Allred (02:29)
That’s amazing.

Lee Rigby (02:30)
Yeah,

staying on task, staying on task till it’s resolved, I think is the main thing.

Matt Allred (02:34)
Well, yeah, there there’s no way to give up, right? It’s like, no, we’re we’re gonna keep plugging away and and just kind of this confidence that, hey, there is a solution. We’re just kind of leaning into it, pushing forward until we figure out something.

Lee Rigby (02:46)
Yeah, and it served me well when I got out and went to work as an elevator mechanic shortly after I got out of service. I remember being on an Otis hydraulic job. And I’ll tell you what, the Otis prints I think were made to be complicated so that it was very difficult for people to follow.

And I remember staying up all night and half a day on a job trying to troubleshoot one electrical issue.

Matt Allred (03:11)
Wow. But you did. You you you persevered.

Lee Rigby (03:12)
I did. Yes.

Matt Allred (03:14)
That’s awesome. know, we talked a little bit about troubleshooting creativity. I mean that that environment kind of forces that upon you, right?

Lee Rigby (03:21)
Yeah, it did. Again, because it’s difficult doing repairs at sea, also helped me to learn about being proactive in preventing issues by adequate preventative means.

Matt Allred (03:33)
Right, right. So obviously you’ve kind of moved into the the code and I’m just curious, you know, after fifty five years in the business, what would you say is the biggest misconception that elevator people have about code compliance and maybe even modernization?

Lee Rigby (03:47)
Well, the code is very difficult to follow. It used to be the codes were pretty simple. And I’ll refer to them more later. But if you look back at the earlier editions of the code, this is the 1937 edition. It really got bigger in the 55. In fact, a lot of the rules we have in our.

A17 code today are word for word the same as in the 55

edition. But know, the codes are very complex and it makes it very confusing for people who, unlike me, are spending all their time working on equipment and not actually in the code book. So it makes it very, very difficult for them sometimes to follow, you know, figure out what the requirements are.

Matt Allred (04:24)
Sure. Well you mentioned you mentioned when we’ve talked before just that ’cause I asked the c asked the question, you know, at what point do you have to bring it up to code and does a modernization mean you br have to bring everything up? And you you kind of said, not exactly, right? So

Lee Rigby (04:37)
That is that that’s exactly right. But that’s a misconception that a lot of elevator people have merely because of the complexity. In fact, I’ve heard people say that when you do a modernization, you have to bring everything up to code, which is just not so. in most jurisdictions, elevators have to meet the code that was in effect when it was initially installed,

and at each alteration.

Matt Allred (04:58)
So do you think

that’s maybe a response to that that sounds very complex, right? Let’s say you’ve done six

Lee Rigby (05:03)
Yes.

Matt Allred (05:03)
alterations so you got six or seven different code eras that you that you have to refer to. Is it just easier to say, if we’re gonna mod this, we’re gonna bring it up to current code and that way we don’t have to think about seven different versions and what those all mean?

Lee Rigby (05:15)
Well, yes, it would be much easier if you did that, sure. Then you just bring it up to the current code. There are some things probably that you wouldn’t be able to change.

the machine beams. They might have been installed under a different criteria and don’t meet the deflection requirements of today’s requirements. So there may be some things that you still have to refer back to the earlier code for. But obviously, the more alterations you make and the more you bring it up to the current code, the less of that chain of codes you have to keep. Yes.

Matt Allred (05:41)
For sure. Okay. Yep. Good

GOod point. Good point. And I was I was intrigued when I asked you the, to define modernization for me because I’ve I’ve asked that question many times, right? What really qualifies? And I’ve heard, well, it’s when you replace a controller. That’s that’s a mod. but what intrigued me the most was just how you responded. obviously that word gets thrown around around a lot. why would you say people struggle?

To define even even some elevator professionals.

Lee Rigby (06:05)
Well, probably because modernization isn’t really defined in the code.

Matt Allred (06:09)
Okay.

Lee Rigby (06:11)
The A17.1 code we use for elevators only has the word modernization in one place. That is in the definition section, but it doesn’t define it. It merely says see alteration.

And that’s because any time you change something such that it’s more modern usually means you’re adding a feature to it. Anytime you add a feature that wasn’t there before,

It’s an alteration. The problem is the definition modernization, which is kind of I think you asked me that. So I’d like to give you my definition. And

Matt Allred (06:41)
Yeah, please.

Lee Rigby (06:42)
to do that, I have to give you some definitions out of A17-1, other than modernization, since it’s not really defined well there. So we have maintenance.

which is basically cleaning, lubrication, adjusting, keeping something as close as possible to good working condition.

Then we have repair, something breaks, have to fix it. You might have it welded, you might have to use an easy out and tap it, know, re-tap, re-drill, tap. You may have to, know, do whatever needs to be done to repair something that’s broken.

it can’t be repaired, you have to replace it. And maybe the repair of one thing means you’ve got to replace something else make that repair. The machine’s bad. To repair the machine, you’re going to replace the bearings. Well, that’s a replacement. So the definition of replacement is to substitute one component for another component that’s basically the same for insurance compliance with code. And that’s not word for word, but that’s basically the definition of replacement out of A-17-1.

So now we get the definition of alteration. And alteration is anything other than maintenance, repair, or replacement.

So if you’re not doing repair, and you’re not doing replacement, and you’re not doing maintenance, then it’s an Now it’s a little bit confusing because some replacements by code classified as alterations. So if you replace your controller, even though it’s a replacement,

It’s classified as an alteration.

Matt Allred (08:02)
Okay. And that and that’s what I

was gonna ask, yeah, ’cause it seemed like, you know, controller, I mean it’s just gonna control it, but but to your point it it specifically defines it as an alteration.

Lee Rigby (08:11)
That’s correct.

Yeah. And there’s a few other things that it specifies. You replace the hydraulic ram or cylinder, it’s classified as an alteration.

Matt Allred (08:18)
Okay.

Lee Rigby (08:19)
So there’s certain things in in A17-1 that says if you do this, it is considered an alteration, even though it meets the definition of replacement.

So that’s one reason why it gets kind of confusing. So now let’s get back to my definition of modernization. My definition of a modernization,

is a series of repairs, replacements, and alterations. So if you’re just repairing something, it’s not alteration. If you’re just replacing something not considered an alteration of the code, then it’s just a replacement. But if you’re altering something, then it’s definitely an alteration. In A17.1, there’s a section, 8.7 alterations.

And in that section, it says if you do this alteration, you must also do this, that and the other.

Matt Allred (09:07)
Gotcha. So there’s your series. Okay.

Lee Rigby (09:09)
there’s a series. So if you replace the driving machine as part of your alteration, you must also add the auxiliary brake, unintended

Matt Allred (09:17)
Okay.

Lee Rigby (09:17)
motion, that kind of thing.

If you replace your controller as part of the alteration, you have to have a data tag giving you your minimum, maximum humidity and temperature ranges, which means you probably have to add air conditioning or do whatever it takes to stay within that range. You have to have your machine room have 19 foot candles of illumination.

you have to have the 18 inch work clearance every side of the equipment requires access for maintenance. So there are things that are triggered by By anything that’s classified as an alteration and when you do an alteration They’re supposed to as part of the alteration put on a data tag that gives the rule number for every alteration you’re doing

Matt Allred (09:57)
No

mind.

Lee Rigby (09:58)
So you have to go through the alteration section of the code and say, I’m replacing the controller. I’m replacing the motion controller. I’m replacing the governor. I’m doing this. I’m doing that. Then you have to decide which of those are replacements. OK, they go over there. And which ones are alterations? And everything that’s an alteration has to have the 8.7 point whatever number on that data tag for that particular alteration. And that’s so that when the inspector comes to inspect it,

he’ll know to look at the original code because that’s already on the data plate. And then he’ll see the alteration data plate and he’ll say, these things have to meet this code. That’s why if it’s a really old elevator, you might have the 1955 code for the original installation. And then you might have, 1984.

1984 code for the alteration if it was altered in 1984. One of

Matt Allred (10:51)
Sure, sure.

Lee Rigby (10:51)
the big problems the elevator guys have is that the current code says you must put this data tag on. It shows the original installation code and then the code for each alteration. But if you’ve had a job that’s been out there and had been in service for years, how do you know when something was altered back in the day?

It’s almost impossible to go back and find those records. You do the best you can. Do the best you can.

Matt Allred (11:14)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well and and it I mean yeah, right.

Yeah. I mean it sounds you know, a single elevator may have multiple, tags and and books and and codes and different decades. And and so I’m just curious, what’s the most challenging code puzzle you’ve had to solve?

Lee Rigby (11:30)
I think the most one that I can remember was the Citrus Tower. Now in Florida near Claremont, there’s a tall building and it’s just a tower, just a small round building and it goes pretty high around. No, I think it’s square. It doesn’t matter. But it’s called the Citrus Tower. And when it was built and for many, many, many years, you could pay to go up in the tower and get a huge panoramic view.

of the Florida

countryside. And all you could see is for as far as you could see were citrus trees. Citrus

Matt Allred (12:01)
Tree tops.

Lee Rigby (12:02)
trees, orange groves, lemon groves, everything as far as you could see. You go up the tower today, you can’t see anything but houses.

Matt Allred (12:09)
Wow. Okay.

Lee Rigby (12:10)
Completely. The only orange trees you’re going to see is in someone’s backyard.

Matt Allred (12:14)
Okay.

Lee Rigby (12:15)
So when Florida adopted A17-3,

which is a retroactive code for all existing elevators. An inspector went out there and he cited a whole litany of things that didn’t meet code, including from A17-1 and A17-3. And so the building owners had called me and I went out to assist them with seeing what their elevator had to meet and what didn’t meet.

And the big issue was, what was the effective code for when it was installed? Because there was no data tag. And

Matt Allred (12:43)
wow. Okay.

Lee Rigby (12:44)
there was no records of any kind of when the accelerator was installed. Back in the day, was Otis.

And it turns out it was installed before 1955. The problem

Matt Allred (12:56)
Wow.

Lee Rigby (12:58)
they had was since this tower was the highest building for absolute miles and miles, they ended up being the recipient of a whole slew radio antennas and cell

antennas and just all kinds of stuff on the roof.

the tower so small that the machinery room took up the whole space at the top of the tower. So

Matt Allred (13:20)
my gosh, okay.

Lee Rigby (13:22)
that means all of the equipment that’s on the roof had to have the transmitters and equipment in the machinery room, which the inspector rode up his foreign equipment and had to get it all out of there, which of course would have disaster. And the room was too small to divide it into two rooms.

So, but the earlier code before the 55 didn’t have such limitations. There

was no, there was no, no violation to have other equipment in the machine room. So we actually went back and had to go back into the county records to try to find when the building was built and the elevator was installed, which we did, which was pre 1955 code. So we just had those violations removed because they weren’t really violations for that edition of the code.

Matt Allred (14:05)
Gotcha. Now that’s

Lee Rigby (14:06)
Because A17-3 allows it to be there, you just can’t add any new equipment into that space.

Matt Allred (14:11)
Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. So how did you end up becoming the person that contractors, inspectors, states, attorneys call when they have code questions?

Lee Rigby (14:19)
Well, being in business both as a mechanic and an elevator company owner for quite a number of years, I ended up selling my company to Montgomery Elevator

and me and my partner. And he went to work as a mechanic and I went to work as a salesperson.

And I was not happy there because I was not allowed, in my opinion, I wasn’t given the freedom to do the sales that I wanted to do. And so I took a position with the state as a state field inspector. worked out in the field for the Bureau of Elevators for five years. And then I had occasion to write a couple of reports on fatalities in my area of

Matt Allred (14:55)
Mm. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Lee Rigby (14:57)
elevator technicians.

and I did the investigation of those. wrote reports and the supervisor at the Bureau of Elevators in Tallahassee was impressed by my reports from what he told me. And so I got promoted to the engineer three position for the Bureau of Elevators. And in that position, I interpreted all the codes for the state of Florida. I represented the state on the ASME code committees.

And I basically, answered all the code questions for

the entire state of Florida while I worked at the Bureau office. got really good at finding answers quickly in the code book. Somebody would call with a question. Back then, we didn’t have PDF.

So I had opened the book and had to dig through the pages. But by the time I asked them a couple of questions about how the fishing was or the weather, just, you know, small talk, you know, I just keep them busy for a couple of minutes. And then by the time I got done, I had my finger on the answer and I read them right out of the code book. And it turns out a lot of these guys thought I was quoting verbatim off the top of my head. And well, later on, you know,

Matt Allred (15:52)
Maybe you were. Maybe you got it memorized.

Lee Rigby (15:56)
I can in some cases, can quote rules off the top of my head because I’ve

I’ve known him so well for so long I can. But when I got started, I couldn’t, but I could find him quickly. And that moved on into when I started giving continuing education for elevator inspectors and mechanics all over the country. And

I had to do a lot of code research to find the changes in the code, to teach them the changes in the code and what the practical applications were.

And because I’m giving this information to these people all over the country, they remember something from class and they’ll call me and they say, hey, I think you said this in the class, you know, but I have this problem. since a lot of those questions come by email, I’ve accumulated hundreds and hundreds of…

email questions and answers. And I actually have a large email list where I will if I get an interesting question and do a research to answer. Because like I said, the codes are complicated. And on top of that, there’s 33 published books of a

Matt Allred (16:56)
Wow.

Lee Rigby (16:57)
17.1 interpretations by the code committees, various code committees.

Matt Allred (17:01)
So in addition to

to the actual code, there’s thirty-three opinions about what it is what it really means. Okay.

Lee Rigby (17:06)
Yes, there’s more than that because there

there are more interpretations on the ASME website that have not yet been published into a book. But there’s

Matt Allred (17:14)
wow. Okay.

Lee Rigby (17:15)
33 published books of interpretations. many times when I give somebody opinion, by the way, if I give an opinion, I often put in there that these opinions are based on code and interpretations.

are not necessarily opinions of the AHJ. Let’s

Matt Allred (17:31)
Gotcha.

Lee Rigby (17:32)
make sure, because have authority to make their own interpretations.

Matt Allred (17:35)
For sure. For sure.

Lee Rigby (17:36)
I will very often, when I give a written interpretation or even over the phone, I give a interpretation from the ASM committee that clarifies that particular issue in the code.

Matt Allred (17:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you enjoy solving these code puzzles or do they does it keep up at night?

Lee Rigby (17:55)
Well, I love it. mean, I mean, you know, I’m I’m 75. I just turned 75.

Matt Allred (18:00)
Good for you.

Lee Rigby (18:01)
I could have retired long time ago. My wife’s glad I’m not retired. I’d be around too much, you know.

Matt Allred (18:06)
Too much energy and running around.

Lee Rigby (18:09)
So I’d still do expert witnessing, which does involve a lot of code research, and I still answer Q &A and I send email blasts on questions and answers out.

to my industry list. I try to do on a regular basis. And I just absolutely enjoy the research and digging deep into it so that I can, know, lot of people, code people, consultants. so many times I’ve been asked, hey, this inspector, I asked him a question, he said this, is that right? And I’m like, you know, well, it’s right to a point, but

No, it’s more complicated than that. And very often when people ask, you know, is this, can you do this or not? And I said, well, it’s not that simple, you know, because you just asked an elevator question, but they didn’t tell me if it’s a hydraulic or attraction or rack and pinion. They didn’t tell me if it’s a new installation or it’s a, you know, vintage installation or what.

what year it was built, you is it glass back? Is it, you know, that, that, that there’s so many different factors come in. Generally, when I’m asked a question, I have to give them more questions to get enough information to answer the question. Exactly.

Matt Allred (19:12)
Yeah, yeah. What’s the context, right? Because without the context it’s

like, well, can’t give you a full answer then.

Lee Rigby (19:19)
Yes, right. But it’s fun

and it’s enjoyable and I love it. But the whole issue is that familiarity. I’ve worked with it with enough Like you said, can quote a lot of codes verbatim and I can clarify a lot of things that sound confusing. For example, the…

A 17.1 for many years has had to rule under PITS, construction of PITS. And

under rule 2.2.2.5, it says that all elevators with fireman service must have a sump pump. And the sump pump has to remove X number of gallons an hour.

Now that’s all there is a fire service. So what happens when you go to an elevator that doesn’t have fire service or has fire service but much earlier vintage and you modernize that elevator. And so now you’re adding or upgrading fire service. Do you have to go back and add a sump pump because the code says if you have fire service, you got to have a sump pump. Does that apply? Yes or no.

Matt Allred (20:20)
Good question.

Lee Rigby (20:21)
The answer is there’s another rule in the very front of code book that says this code applies to new installations only with

Matt Allred (20:28)
wow. Okay.

Lee Rigby (20:29)
some exceptions. The engineering section, I believe, is accepted. The A17.6, which is the maintenance section, is accepted. The alteration section is accepted. And the testing section is accepted. So there’s various things that don’t apply.

So in order to find out if you have to go back when you add fire service, you’re required to meet 2.2.2.5 and have a sump pump, you have to go to one of those sections to see if you have to go back there. So you would go to the alteration section, look for adding or upgrading fire service, see what those requirements are, and see if any of those requirements send you back to 2.2.2.5 because otherwise it only applies to new.

And guess what? There are none that do.

Matt Allred (21:11)
Gotcha. Okay.

Lee Rigby (21:14)
So you don’t have to upgrade. You don’t have to add a pump just because you add fire service. And there’s an interpretation that says so.

Matt Allred (21:19)
Gotcha.

Lee Rigby (21:21)
So you don’t have to just take my opinion of it. That’s the ASME’s committee’s opinion.

Matt Allred (21:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

there’s a lot to it. And obviously you’ve you’ve reviewed countless lawsuits, injuries, fatalities. What’s something you’ve learned about human nature that maybe surprises you?

Lee Rigby (21:34)
Well, number one is that memory fallible A lot of people will say things in context of being deposed or something and they don’t really remember exactly what it was. People have a tendency to take the path of least resistance and want delve into that a little bit.

when there’s safety procedures being followed, if people don’t take the necessary steps to do things safe, can be accidents as a result of that.

Matt Allred (22:06)
Sure. Well,

I remember talking with a safety vice president and and he was kind of saying that that, you know, weekend holidays, you know, Friday nights, you know, people are kind of rushing to get out. Have you seen that in your work as well, that that this path of least resistance and let’s just get this over with and we’ll skip the the safety procedures.

Lee Rigby (22:25)
You know, I can’t say as I’ve really correlated that to any of the incidents I’ve investigated, but I know from experience that is definitely the fact.

Matt Allred (22:35)
Okay.

Lee Rigby (22:36)
You

Matt Allred (22:37)
Yep. Yep. and you had mentioned that that reading some technician depositions sometimes will make you cringe. what do you s think are the most common mistakes people make n not just in the shaft or in the pit when they’re doing the work, but but when they’re being questioned? You mentioned fallibility of of memory and maybe maybe that’s part of it, right? Is is answering things that that’s not the way you remembered. Are you making something up? But what what are your impressions on that? That mistakes when people are being

Lee Rigby (23:04)
Well,

Matt Allred (23:04)
deposed?

Lee Rigby (23:05)
yeah, if somebody says something that they don’t know for sure, need to preface it believe or I recall, rather than saying this is that. And elevator guys should be aware of some things that I often find that they aren’t aware of.

example, mean, one of the major causes of accidents on elevators, a couple, the two major ones that are usually discussed are people tripping over the cell because the floor is not exactly level. The other one is being hit by the door. And door impacts, the door closing force and the door kinetic energy are regulated by code.

And so every technician should know what the maximum door closing force is and how to determine whether the kinetic energy is within code or not. And I find many elevator technicians will say, yes, I’ve checked the door force. And what they mean is put their hand on the door and they felt it stall. That doesn’t mean they read it with a gauge.

Or they watch the door and yeah, it closes normally. what’s your… And I’ve read depositions where technicians say this. say, yeah, I was there, I did the maintenance before the incident. I watched the door close and it closed normally. And they say, what is the requirement for the door? Well, I’ve just seen it so many times, I know when it’s Which is not really a valid…

Matt Allred (24:22)
It’s it’s hard to

hard to prove that in a court of law, right? When you know

Lee Rigby (24:26)
Yes, it’s hard to that. But if the technician knew to say, the rule of thumb in the industry is if it doesn’t close at more than one foot per second. And that door closed at 3.7 seconds. And it’s inch door, which means 3.5 is enough. that means it’s within code Because it took longer to close than the 3.5 seconds.

Matt Allred (24:48)
So

you you you talked about with the meter, I mean and I don’t think you’re you’re saying this, but is the implication that more technicians need to be checking with meters. I mean, because there’s there’s no way to know that the next person walking in is not gonna get injured.

Lee Rigby (25:02)
sure, but the spring gauge is adequate. You know, have one of those little gauges.

Matt Allred (25:07)
Mm.

Lee Rigby (25:08)
It’s got a spring in it and you just hold it door. I find a lot of guys don’t really know how to use it. technicians do. Because you have to,

you can’t read kinetic energy.

And so anytime mass is moving, it creates kinetic energy. So in order to read the door gauge, you have to stall the door, apply the gauge, let it move the gauge.

But again, there’s movement. You can’t read movement. So the way that the inspector’s guide says is that once the gauge stalls the door, you bat off on the gauge until the door starts to move. And that’s where you read it to read your force. Because otherwise, you’re reading kinetic energy.

Matt Allred (25:45)
So you wait until it actually pauses and

Lee Rigby (25:47)
You stall the door,

Matt Allred (25:48)
comes back. Okay.

Lee Rigby (25:49)
you let the door compress the gauge, and then you back off on the gauge until the door starts to move.

Matt Allred (25:56)
interesting.

Lee Rigby (25:57)
static pressure force, which is your closing force, maximum 30 pounds force.

Matt Allred (26:02)
Gotcha. Gotcha.

Lee Rigby (26:03)
And then the kinetic energy is actually a calculation. But as I said, I wouldn’t expect an average technician to do the calculations because you have to know the mass of the doors and the mass of all the moving components of the operator and all that, which you don’t need that if you know that the rule of thumb is one foot per second. it’s

takes longer than that to close you’re fine. Now under the newer codes, the all new operators have to have a tag on it marked in the feet, you know, mark what the maximum door closing times is to stay within that kinetic energy force.

And we find many times

that the guy is doing installations will put on that tag what the speed is. as a consultant. I’ve had it, I was a consultant from the city of Tampa and we had a building with four elevators. put new door equipment on all four elevators, all four exact same doors.

exact same operators. And if you did the calculation, they would all be the same as to how much the what the minimum closing times are. Okay, minimum closing time. So the longer the time, the less connected energy. So but each each elevator had a different time on it, which can’t which isn’t right. So what happened was instead of doing the calculation and putting the minimum time on, they just put down the actual time that it had whether it was right or wrong.

So that’s another place where it can be misunderstood what the requirement is.

Matt Allred (27:29)
For sure, for sure. Well y yeah, the requirement and the implication and like you say, if it becomes investigation, just knowing how important that one little reading would have been.

Matt Allred (27:40)
Hey there listeners, it’s Matt and I would love to know what you want to hear more of on the podcast. If you have a topic in mind or a guest you’d like to hear from, head over to ElevatorCareers.net and drop a suggestion in the box or you can email podcast at ElevatorCareers.net. The link will also be in the description below. Thank you so much for being part of this conversation. Now back to the show.

Lee Rigby (28:02)
and

then the next important thing is Documenting. if you’re

Matt Allred (28:06)
For sure.

Lee Rigby (28:06)
there doing maintenance and you happen to check the door closing force, It only takes Five seconds, ten at the most, Then before you leave you should write that in the on-site records. door closing force fifteen pounds or twenty pounds and I can tell you what that has saved a lot of elevator companies a lot of money

When I go out as an expert, somebody claimed they got hit by the door and it was too much force. got pinned, it crushed them or whatever. Um, and I go into the machine room and the technician, when he did his regular maintenance, he put down door closing force, 20 pounds. door closing speed, 3.8 seconds.

right there says the elevator company didn’t do anything wrong. If

Matt Allred (28:47)
Right, right.

Lee Rigby (28:48)
we go back afterwards and we find it’s the same as what the guy guy wrote down before, it couldn’t have been out of code when that person got hit by the door.

Matt Allred (28:56)
Yeah, good point. But if but if they’re not writing it down and not checking it, it’s like your guess is as good as mine.

Lee Rigby (29:00)
then it’s very

difficult to defend the case. And by the

Matt Allred (29:02)
Yeah yeah, exactly, exactly. So

Lee Rigby (29:05)
way, I don’t work just defense, I work plaintiffs too. So, you know, make sure you do it right, because I don’t want to be on the other side of my elevator buddies, but sometimes

Matt Allred (29:12)
Exactly.

No, I mean it sounds like you you

Lee Rigby (29:13)
it happens.

Matt Allred (29:15)
you do deal on both sides of these investigations and and I I’m curious, without naming any names, what’s maybe one of those most unusual or memorable expert witness cases you’ve ever worked on?

Lee Rigby (29:26)
Well, the fatalities are always the most memorable.

Matt Allred (29:28)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Rigby (29:30)
And I’ve had a number of them, most of them being elevator personnel. some years ago to stay out and on what they called the knock style valve. I got one, but I don’t have it here in my office. But it’s a valve shutoff valve. And it doesn’t have a handle on it. You need a wrench to turn it.

it’s a cast iron body and it has a bronze core

that’s cone shaped. So you know, the core is like this long and it’s cone shaped and it has a hole through it. And it goes down in that body and if you turn it, it shuts off the oil flow. And if you turn it the other way, so the hole lines up with the pipe, then the oil flows through. But there’s no seals in it.

to make the seal, cone-shaped core has a threaded rod sticking out the bottom. You put a nut on it and you tighten it up. And when you tighten it tight, it seals that

brass or bronze to the cast iron and it doesn’t leak. And it’s called knock style because if you want to open or close that valve, that…

that’s bound in there now because you tighten it down, you have to loosen the nut just a little bit and tap up on it from the bottom

Matt Allred (30:39)
So it’ll spin.

Lee Rigby (30:40)
just so it spins easy and then you can turn it on and off, right? Well, the problem is that Dover was making hydraulic elevators and they came out with a valve that looks from the top and the side, it looks exactly the same, but there’s no nut on the bottom.

Matt Allred (30:52)
No wow.

Lee Rigby (30:53)
You just put your wrench on it and turn it. Well,

Guys that are familiar with that valve but not familiar with the nox-style valve, they put the wrench on it like, man, this thing’s tight. And they’d force it, which would shear the threaded stud out of the bottom.

Matt Allred (31:07)
well.

Lee Rigby (31:08)
And then the pressure would blow that cone up in the air and the elevator would fall. Just as fast as oil would come out of the line, which is pretty fast, I can tell you. And so

Matt Allred (31:15)
Yeah. Yeah. Especially under pressure.

Lee Rigby (31:17)
we had a case where an elevator technician was in a pit. And we don’t know what he was doing because he didn’t lift the tail.

But for some reason he was working in the pit and that valve blew apart. And instead of laying down in the pit where you have a refuge area, he saw the car coming down and he tried to beat it out by crawling out of the pit.

Matt Allred (31:34)
Hm. Sure.

Lee Rigby (31:36)
And it ended up basically cutting it off. And one of the things that hit so hard for me on that was that it recalled when I was a young elevator guy and I was working on an installation and

It turns out that when somebody put a pipe together in the machine room, this elevator was not passed inspection yet. We were preparing it for inspection. But when they screwed the piping together, they didn’t protect the components of the valve from being over tightened when they were tightening the pipe. So what they did was they They threaded the fine

threads that hold the valve together. so when we over pressured the system to get the relief pressure to prepare for our inspection, which was going to be the next morning, the valve blew

Matt Allred (32:23)
wow.

Lee Rigby (32:23)
apart and it was oil rushing coming out and it was gushing everywhere. And my first thought was, my God, oil is going everywhere. It’s going to destroy the flooring down the hallway and all this stuff. So my first thought was to stop the oil flow.

The hoistway door was open, the machine room was on the ground floor, so I ran around and I jumped into the pit, because there’s another valve in the pit.

Matt Allred (32:43)
my. As as the elevator’s descending.

Lee Rigby (32:46)
And as the elevator’s descending, I jumped in the pit and shut the valve off. In retrospect, that was a pretty stupid thing to do.

Matt Allred (32:52)
Yeah, I mean a split

second you you wouldn’t have lived to tell the tale.

Lee Rigby (32:56)
Yeah, you know, yeah, it’s, so anyway, because of, because of my experience, you know, that particular accident, you know, hit home more than, more than some of the others, but all of them are, all of them are terrible.

Matt Allred (33:06)
For sure. I mean, it’s yeah. I mean, it’s a split second

decision, right? And and

Lee Rigby (33:12)
Yes.

Matt Allred (33:13)
it can happen that fast for sure. what what would you say are, you know, just kind looking back at at some of those challenging cases, what are some of the safety rules that people are most tempted to skip and why is that so dangerous?

Lee Rigby (33:28)
Well, the ones that they are in my experience and the ones with injuries and things like that, the ones that are skipped most often are the safety procedures.

found in the elevator industry field employee safety handbook. They’ve got safety procedures and the primary one is for safe access into the hoist way and into the pit. Because there’s a procedure to follow. It takes a few minutes. When you’re going to get on a car top, you you open the door. you put the elevator on

close the door, you set up a call, make sure the car doesn’t run. You open the door, you put the car on inspection, take it off stop, close the door, make sure the car doesn’t run.

You also check the interlock to make sure the car doesn’t run. So now you’ve got three different devices that you know will keep the car from running

on normal. Then you have it on inspection and stop as you cross onto the car top. So you actually have three protections. The interlocks open, the stop switches in stop position, the car’s on inspection. When you’re crossing that threshold, going from the the sill to the car top, you want to make sure that that car’s not going to move.

For example, when I was a state inspector, this is another memorable one for me. to get on the car top, my standard procedure was to go to the second level, send the car to the first level, open the door and get on the car top. these were short floors. So I didn’t have to catch the car in flight to step on the car top. I just let it go to floor level, open the door, make sure nobody got in.

And I’m standing there getting ready to put it on inspection, holding the door open and the car just takes off and runs right by me at high speed with the door. I’m standing there holding the door open and that car is just zip by me at high speed.

Matt Allred (35:09)
Mm.

Lee Rigby (35:10)
And I’m like, my God, I could have been leeching in there to hit the stop switch. Right. That’s why when you open the door, you want to make sure the car is not going to run before you hit the stop switch and close the door and see if it works. So

Matt Allred (35:21)
I mean, it sounds like there’s like

you say, there’s three kind of safety mechanisms, checks, and and if you’re cutting corners or trying to hurry, might

expose yourself to some real risk.

Lee Rigby (35:32)
do, you absolutely do. in fact, when I do expert witnessing work, oftentimes there’s more than one expert there. When we examine the equipment, you’ll have multiple parties in a lawsuit, right? You have the plaintiff, there’ll always be a plaintiff, otherwise there wouldn’t be a lawsuit. They usually have their own expert. Then you have the elevator company, which is normally sued.

Then you have a building owner and sometimes the building owner and the elevator company are blaming each other so they’ll have their own experts and now that so much of the elevator inspections across the country is privatized I got a case right now where the elevator inspection firm is also being sued so you got multiple experts on site

and I’ve been there and I’ll watch the other experts

And I’ll often see him open the car top and just

Matt Allred (36:18)
wow.

Lee Rigby (36:18)
step on the car following the procedures. I’ve had a number of cases where elevator personnel were killed in the pit because they didn’t check the stop. They didn’t turn the stop switch off, then close the door and make sure it wouldn’t run with the stop switch in the stop position and end up getting seriously injured or killed. So yes, those procedures are.

shortcuts and procedure that can take time and people would be tempted to do a shortcut, especially with traction elevators. And that is the requirement that if you’re going to do work that doesn’t require moving the car, you’re supposed to lock out, tag out the elevator, which means that on a traction elevator, if you’re going to work on the pit and you’re not going to need power, you got to go all the way to the roof, to the machinery room, remove power.

and then come back down and do your work and then go all the way back up to unlocking again. But that’s really the safest way.

Matt Allred (37:08)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Well and you you highlight that you know, you’re there doing an investigation, maybe got four experts. If those experts aren’t following correct procedure, they they could end up doing the exact same thing or being injured because safety doesn’t doesn’t prefer one or the other, right? Just because you’re an expert doesn’t mean you’re not gonna get get yourself in trouble.

So you have mentioned you know, one of the biggest problems is poor documentation. What would you say separates excellent documentation from from poor documentation?

Lee Rigby (37:36)
providing adequate information. I’ve got a case right now where there was an an entrapment and resulting in a claimed injury.

Matt Allred (37:44)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Rigby (37:46)
I’m not a medical person, so I can’t say whether it’s a it’s a valid injury or not, not. But my job is to to determine what the elevator did or didn’t do and whether the elevator was properly maintained and that kind

Matt Allred (37:59)
Mm.

Lee Rigby (37:59)
of thing.

And so the record says that the technician came out and he found a bad communication between the controller and something else and that he replaced a board. That’s it. That’s all it

says. What board? board? You know, what caused the elevator to stop? what was the underlying factor here? And the problem…

Matt Allred (38:17)
So that’s the documentation you have and then

so later sometime you have somebody getting injured and that’s just not enough to go on, right?

Lee Rigby (38:24)
Right. Well, he was injured. prior to this, record because this record was produced after the technician came out to find out why the elevator stopped.

Matt Allred (38:31)
wow. Okay.

Lee Rigby (38:32)
Okay. So, so the elevator technician came out, um, he didn’t log any faults.

Matt Allred (38:36)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Rigby (38:37)
You know, he didn’t say, oh, there was a power fault. was a encoder fault. There was a, fault or that fault. There’s no nothing.

he just said that there was a communication failure and that there there was a bad board. But he didn’t say replace the board. He didn’t say what board was bad.

Matt Allred (38:51)
wow.

Lee Rigby (38:51)
You know, it was very little for me to go on. Yeah,

Matt Allred (38:54)
Just the board, okay.

Lee Rigby (38:57)
just the board and a board.

Matt Allred (38:58)
Stay board, okay.

Lee Rigby (38:59)
And that really tells me

nothing. And the problem is, of course,

is that the lawsuits generally don’t come in until just before the end of the statutes of limitations, which might be three years down the road.

Matt Allred (39:09)
So he’s gonna say it’s long enough that you can’t

remember that that guy might not even be there anymore. Yeah.

Lee Rigby (39:14)
Yeah, can’t

remember.

Matt Allred (39:15)
Very interesting.

Lee Rigby (39:16)
Can’t remember.

By the way, when guys are being deposed, I mentioned that one of the things that they do is say things that they’re not sure of. But one of the things they need to know when they do a deposition is that you don’t have to always come up with an answer. I don’t know or or I don’t recall are perfectly valid answers. You don’t look stupid because you say you don’t know

Matt Allred (39:37)
It’s better than making something up.

Lee Rigby (39:39)
something.

I, I, I, time was in a deposition and this guy gave me a whole string of questions that were absolutely way off topic. And he says, well, do you know this? Do you know that? Do you know that? And for like 10 or 12 questions in a row, I said, I don’t know. I don’t know. And at the end of that, he says, well, you don’t know much, do you? And I says, well, I know a

Matt Allred (40:00)
Yeah.

Lee Rigby (40:00)
lot. You’re just not asking the right questions.

So yeah, there’s nothing wrong with saying I don’t know or I don’t recall. And if later in the deposition, something they say triggers the memory, then you can say, you know what? A while ago I said I don’t remember, but you just said something that triggered that memory. Now I can tell you. And this

is my answer. And of course, the main thing I can tell anybody about giving a deposition is to tell the truth. Because…

More likely than not, as thorough as the investigations go, if they find out the truth and you’ve lied, then you’re you’re

Matt Allred (40:38)
Yeah.

Lee Rigby (40:38)
in in a lot of trouble. And you’ve done your employer a horrible disservice. because it can be very expensive.

Matt Allred (40:43)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well

Lee, I’ve got just a couple of questions for you as we wrap up. so first one, you know, when you look across

Lee Rigby (40:49)
Sure.

Matt Allred (40:50)
your decades of working in the industry, of of investigating accidents and litigation and what recurring lesson does the elevator industry need still need to learn?

Lee Rigby (41:00)
Well…

I tried hard teach code. One of the issues we have is that a lot of the technicians get most of their continuing education

from the practical applications, which is very important. They have to know their job. They have to know how to fix elevators. They have to know how to do the troubleshooting. They have to know how to do all these things.

But if your continuing education doesn’t include a code component, you really need to do some investigation into that and to know what the requirements are in your particular jurisdiction. Because oftentimes, your local jurisdiction will have revisions too. And Florida’s no exception, but so are…

many other jurisdictions that they will have amendments or deletions from the national codes in their local requirements and they need to be familiar with those requirements.

Matt Allred (41:49)
Absolutely.

No, that’s a good good point. Obviously you’ve you’ve seen this industry from pretty much every angle mechanic, contractor, inspector, code committee, member, instructor, consultant, expert witness. Which role would you say has taught you the most and why?

Lee Rigby (42:06)
boy. You know.

Each role has taught me a different facet. And so, you know, the working as a mechanic taught me a lot about safety and just about perseverance and troubleshooting and that kind of thing. The expert witnessing has basically taught me what can go wrong, you know, you don’t follow those procedures. The teaching helped to solidify and reinforce my…

code research that I learned while I was with the Bureau of Elevator Safety as a code enforcement guy. you know, and actually teaching probably the best thing that’s helped me be a good expert. Because when it comes to doing expert witnessing, the whole point of the thing is to explain to the jury in ways that they can understand. Because

elevators in in the codes are very complex like I said a number of times.

And so if you can explain it in simple terms so the jury can understand it, it, you know, it there was one time where I had to explain a hydraulic elevator and and how it works. And the The expert for the other side side said that, you know, this happened on this hydraulic elevator. And I was trying to tell the jury that it just was not possible. And I actually had a Dover I2 valve and I had it in my lap. And I had all the bolts and everything loose so that I could disassemble it by hand

in the jury box to the jury and took the components and showed it to them and explained it to them. and put it back And put it back together. And after the trial, we won the trial. I was working for the defense and after the trial, the jury was pooled as to why they, you know, why they went

the verdict for defense. And couple of them said, well, we didn’t know what that what that guy was talking about. He took that thing apart and he explained everything. Obviously, he knew what he was talking about and we believe him.

Matt Allred (43:56)
Ha ha.

Lee Rigby (43:57)
So.

Matt Allred (43:59)
Exactly. No, that’s yeah. You gotta build the have the credibility and knowing how it works and and all of that is is so key. So each of those roles really

Lee Rigby (44:07)
Exactly.

Matt Allred (44:08)
combined, right? You couldn’t do one without the other, right? You couldn’t be an expert witness without having been a mechanic and and done some of those things, at least not in the same way. So they

Lee Rigby (44:17)
Correct, correct.

And I feel very fortunate to be in this industry and very fortunate that I had the opportunity to wear so many different hats

Matt Allred (44:25)
For sure.

Lee Rigby (44:26)
and to learn so many different things. And that’s another reason why, you know, I’m semi-retired but I can’t give it up. And that’s because, you know, I think I still have a lot to share, you know, and I’m very glad to be able to do that. And it’s just my joy in life, so.

Matt Allred (44:41)
That’s awesome.

Lee, anything else you’d like to say before we wrap up?

Lee Rigby (44:44)
Yeah, I’m doing a Riverkeeper paddle again, 107 miles over five days. It’s a fundraiser.

Matt Allred (44:49)
I

love it.

Lee Rigby (44:50)
I’ll be putting out an email blast asking for contributions and a lot of my elevator I’ve known for years and have been able to call them when I needed something or they called me when they needed something and I appreciate everybody who’s helping with that and I always try to give back, know, not only to the elevator industry but to other places I can as well. So, there you go.

Matt Allred (45:12)
Right. No, it’s awesome that you can do it. I at at age

seventy five, you’re still rowing a hundred miles in five days. I mean, that’s amazing. It’s really awesome. Good for you. Well, thank you. Yeah, no, thank you. I

Lee Rigby (45:22)
Thank you so much, Matt. I appreciate the appreciate you.

Matt Allred (45:25)
I appreciate the time, your expertise, and yeah, thank you for all you do for the for the industry and keeping us with within the codes.

Matt Allred (45:32)
Thank you for listening to the Elevator Careers Podcast sponsored by the Allred Group, a leader in elevator industry recruiting. Please visit our YouTube channel @ElevatorCareers or check us out online at elevatorcareers.net. Please like and subscribe and until next time, stay safe.