Why Elevator Technician Turnover is Hurting Customers—and What Can Help | Bernard Lee

Today’s guest is Bernard Lee, a longtime property manager who has spent more than thirty years working with elevator service companies. He’s seen the value of having technicians who know a building inside and out, and he’s also seen what happens when that continuity disappears. In this conversation, we discuss trends he’s seen in elevator service over the years, why technician turnover matters so much to customers, and how mentorship can strengthen the industry as a whole.

Transcript:

Matt Allred (00:00)
from a customer’s perspective, what messages does that send to you?

Bernard Lee (00:03)
to me it says that there’s some instability taking place somewhere.

Matt Allred (00:06)
Mm-hmm.

Bernard Lee (00:07)
and I don’t know if it’s the company or the industry itself. but

Matt Allred (00:10)
Mm-hmm.

Bernard Lee (00:11)
something is going on when there’s constant relocation or switching around of people.

the constant turnover really is not good for us.

Matt Allred (00:19)
Well, it’s hard to build a relationship, and have to keep starting over and over and

over.

Matt Allred (00:24)
Hello and welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group. I am your host, Matt Allred.

Matt Allred (00:33)
Does your workforce need a lift? At the Allred Group, we are committed to connecting your company with top talent that matches your need. Give us a call at 404-890-0445.

Matt Allred (00:46)
Today’s guest is Bernard Lee, a longtime property manager who has spent more than 30 years working with elevator service companies. He’s seen the value of having technicians who know a building inside and out, and he’s also seen what happens when that continuity disappears. In this conversation, we discuss trends he’s seen in elevator service over the years, why technician turnover matters so much to customers, and how mentorship can strengthen the industry as a whole.

Matt Allred (01:10)
Bernard, welcome to the show.

Bernard Lee (01:12)
Hey, thanks for having me, Matt.

Matt Allred (01:13)
You bet. No, it’s it’s great to have you here. I appreciate your willingness and I’ve enjoyed every conversation had and I’m sure this is gonna be another really, really good one. And I’m I’m really intrigued, you know, the the first time we met, you had mentioned, having some issues with the elevator service. And so I want to talk to you more about that because I mean you’ve been managing properties in and around the Atlanta area for thirty three years, is that right?

Bernard Lee (01:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt Allred (01:38)
And you you mentioned to me that that there’s been a change. And so I’m curious, what’s the biggest change you’ve seen in elevator service industry over those three decades?

Bernard Lee (01:48)
Well, probably the technology, you think back when elevators first got started, they probably didn’t have a lot of the stuff that we have today. the technology is the first thing that comes to mind, of course. like the elevator destination and also tying in elevators with other components of the building. so that’s definitely something that has changed over time. Also, the other thing that comes to mind is the

architectural design, you know, nowadays when you’re designing a building, you pretty much have a little bit more involvement from that aspect and designing the elevator, et cetera. It’s not just square box or rectangle box anymore. So put a lot more into

Matt Allred (02:26)
Right. Yeah. Abs

Bernard Lee (02:28)
it.

Matt Allred (02:28)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as far as the the elevator service, when when did you notice a change in that? ‘Cause that’s what that was the piece that you kind of brought up in that first conversation.

Bernard Lee (02:37)
Yeah,

I don’t know, maybe a few years now, where it started to be more and more noticeable. I guess the changes in technicians at the buildings, just seeing the turnover, you know, that some of the companies are are having. And that’s when

Matt Allred (02:54)
Yeah, yeah.

Bernard Lee (02:54)
it kind of became evident to me that something’s going on.

Matt Allred (02:57)
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned having four or five different technicians, just in

Bernard Lee (03:00)
Yeah.

Matt Allred (03:00)
a matter of a few short years. how does that constant turnover affect you as a property manager?

Bernard Lee (03:06)
well, to me it just kind of bothers the fact that you’ve got somebody here who knows the building, who gets comfortable with the equipment and you know, just having the assurance that the person who’s there is knowledgeable and little things that are kind of isolated to our building,

you kind of lose that as you’re you’re constantly changing,

Matt Allred (03:27)
what do you

feel in terms of cost? Does it cost you time, trust, problem solving? Is there downtime? What have you noticed there?

Bernard Lee (03:35)
somewhat. I think in some cases it could be. again, because if you if you’ve got somebody there who knows the equipment, who’s been working on it for a while, they’re more likely to kind of rec correct things quicker than someone

else coming in having to having to learn it. Not to say that that person isn’t skilled, but they just may not be familiar with the quirks that we, you know, may experience or or have at our building.

Matt Allred (03:58)
No, absolutely. I mean you you told me about one of the other properties you’d worked at where the same technician really took care for what did you say, twenty years

Bernard Lee (04:04)
yeah.

Matt Allred (04:05)
or or almost twenty years?

Bernard Lee (04:06)
Yeah, this guy had been in place since the building was completed. And

Matt Allred (04:11)
Mm.

Bernard Lee (04:11)
he was there until he retired. And of course he worked

on other, high rises around us as well.

but he knew that equipment extremely well. So him and the other technicians that were working in our area, they were very familiar with the product and very comfortable working on it.

Matt Allred (04:29)
Yeah. Yeah. What what would you say made that relationship so valuable to you as the property manager?

Bernard Lee (04:35)
It was just a trusting relationship and the fact that he’d been there for so long, he knew the equipment. I never had any doubts or worries about if something was not gonna be done correctly or timely, you know, by him being

there, it was assured to be taken care of pretty quickly.

Matt Allred (04:51)
Yeah. Well it it sounds like he was taking a lot of pride in the work he was doing. He was yeah.

Bernard Lee (04:54)
Yep. And that’s the other part. Yep.

A lot of the preventive maintenance stuff we knew was being done because he was there on site taking care of it. just had a great working relationship with the with the team that we had in place, myself and the the engineers, you know, the entire property management team. So yeah, all of that, it was just a great working relationship for us all.

Matt Allred (05:15)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. what would you say that technician knew about your building that a new person just couldn’t?

Bernard Lee (05:21)
well, I’m not an elevator technician, so but I would imagine again there are certain little things that would happen that he’d automatically know, you know, what the solution was. so yeah, but just because of the amount of time that he’d been there, you could probably tell him certain things and immediately the troubleshooting for it, he would, automatically know what it was or what how to respond to it.

Matt Allred (05:43)
Yeah, I’m I’m sure you you tell him what’s going on and it’s like he’s whittling it down pretty quick. Okay, you know, th something was acting a little screwy a week ago and okay, this is

Bernard Lee (05:52)
Yep.

Matt Allred (05:52)
it.

Bernard Lee (05:54)
And I think in some cases, certain things would happen and I would automatically know because just in conversation with him, because he’d always

come back, report to us what the issue was. And after a while, you know, they’d say certain things and I could tell him up front, like, hey, they’re saying it’s doing this, so it’s probably this, ’cause you know, we’ve

worked with him enough to know

what the corrective action is gonna be or needs to be.

Matt Allred (06:16)
Yeah.

You mentioned that he would he would check in every time and and kinda report back and obviously that strengthen that relationship. Do you do you find that still happens or is is that going away or?

Bernard Lee (06:27)
It does sometimes, but each technician is different. You

Matt Allred (06:31)
Mm-hmm.

Bernard Lee (06:31)
know, I think what happens with us is a lot of times, we build relationships with these folks that we work with on a consistent basis and they start to learn how, you know, how you like to be informed or kept in the loop on things. And I’ve had that with the technicians who’ve been with me long term. I like to know I want to follow up and I also want to follow up with the customer a lot of times just to

you know, give them some reassurance, especially when there’s somebody who’s not comfortable you know, with elevators or who may have had a bad experience at some point. So, you know, I try to be that person who’s who communicates well with our tenants and, our customers.

Matt Allred (07:09)
Sure. Well, I mean if you yeah, if you’re not getting this the service that you need on one hand, right, you just got the tenants and customers pounding away at you and how you’re kinda,

Bernard Lee (07:16)
Exactly.

Matt Allred (07:17)
left alone there. So you really need that that support to make sure you can can handle both sides and that everybody’s happy.

Bernard Lee (07:22)
Yep. It takes everybody

on board to make it work correctly.

Matt Allred (07:25)
Yeah, so true. So true. And you you mentioned to me that it’s not just, the technicians that you’ve seen some churn in the last few years. You you mentioned account managers, supervisors, even even mod crews that change out, you know, multiple times. My question is what, you know, from a customer’s perspective, what messages does that send to you?

Bernard Lee (07:44)
to me it says that there’s some instability taking place somewhere.

Matt Allred (07:46)
Mm-hmm.

Bernard Lee (07:48)
I don’t know if it’s the company or the industry itself. it could be a combination, but

that just tells me something is going on when there’s just some instability and constant you relocation or switching around of people. Cause not everybody who’s left left the company. Sometimes they just take a technician

from your particular area and may put them somewhere else, based on their skill set.

Matt Allred (08:11)
Gotcha.

Bernard Lee (08:11)
so I know a lot of times that happens as well, but yeah, just the the constant turnover is really is not good for us.

And

even when the t the tenants see the same person there and they know that that’s what that person does and they they’re working on, you know, it I just think it gives them a a bit of more of a reassurance that things are being handled properly around there. So

Matt Allred (08:32)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and elevators seem to be one of those things that, you know, some people have some anxiety around it, right? So so just knowing that, hey, I can trust this person and they’ve got it covered probably

Bernard Lee (08:42)
Exactly.

Matt Allred (08:42)
helps ease that that anxiety.

Bernard Lee (08:45)
Yep, absolutely.

Matt Allred (08:46)
Yeah, you mentioned that it’s it’s often difficult to get an issue resolved because of this you know, the changing out the people.

have there been like specific

Issues that you feel like maybe went on too long or or actually got painful in that time?

Bernard Lee (09:01)
Yeah, so without speaking specific to any any buildings,

there have been cases where, say for instance, a property had a modernization project completed and there were some discrepancies or it wasn’t clear maybe even in the contract about when the building starts for that. For example, the one that comes to mind it was a project that actually went over

the time that it should have.

in terms of the modernization being completed. which, you know, you would automatically think it would probably trigger the warranty period, all that stuff to be extended. Well that was an issue with the particular project where it went over the period and I’m not talking about like a couple of months. It was over a year that it

Matt Allred (09:44)
my. Wow.

Bernard Lee (09:45)
actually went went beyond, which means that it affected the

dates of when the final project was turned over to us and when the billing kicks in and all of that. So it screwed all of that up because it wasn’t on schedule. And because of the constant turnover, the individuals who were handling it didn’t realize like, no, this project has been a year over

the clock should not have started ticking until this thing was complete, not before. So

Matt Allred (10:13)
It’s yeah, it sounds like some certainly some pain and some some conversations to be had there.

Bernard Lee (10:19)
Absolutely.

Matt Allred (10:19)
yeah, yeah. No, thank you. So you and I, you know, in that first conversation, we talked a good bit about the the next generation, kind of training up, people to do the work. We talked specifically about mentorship. And you said that you believe mentorship is becoming one of the industry’s biggest needs. Why would you say mentoring is so important in a profession like elevator service?

Bernard Lee (10:40)
Well, I think first and foremost it comes from a personal perspective because I I am a mentor, have

Matt Allred (10:45)
Mm-hmm.

Bernard Lee (10:46)
served as a mentor for many years. So I know the importance of it. So I kinda I always look at situations from a similar lens, in that without mentorship, you know, there is no succession. And that’s my, you know, personal belief. Because again, as we spoke on earlier, you can’t pass down

information if that communication is not taking place. So I think it’s very important for people to partake. And it doesn’t have to be anything formal, but definitely to partake in being a mentor and sharing information because a lot of the folks who’ve been around in the industry for an an extended period of time, they’re now getting to the point where they’re considering retirement. and there’s a lot of knowledge

That’s walking out the door with a lot of these folks and it’s not being passed on. So for instance, we talked earlier about how a technician who’s on a property consistently or for a long period of time, things become more and more clear to him where you could give him a certain incident and he could troubleshoot you know, immediately know what the issue is likely going to be. Well, that is lost in itself if

You bring a new technician in, now they’ve got to spend another don’t know, another year learning something that it took someone else, you know, maybe even a few years to learn, but they could pass that information along and you could save a lot of time with troubleshooting just by mentorship and the sharing of information.

Matt Allred (12:10)
Hey there listeners, it’s Matt and I would love to know what you want to hear more of on the podcast. If you have a topic in mind or a guest you’d like to hear from, head over to ElevatorCareers.net and drop a suggestion in the box or you can email podcast at ElevatorCareers.net. The link will also be in the description below. Thank you so much for being part of this conversation. Now back to the show.

Matt Allred (12:33)
Yeah, that’s that’s well said. I mean, obviously mentoring takes an investment in time. It takes kind of kind of a slowing down and willingness to teach and almost seems like in today’s, I don’t know, franticness. It’s like we sometimes forget that no, it it really takes it takes time, you know, it takes that investment. and you mentioned, you know, your your desire and your involvement in mentoring. What does a a great mentor look like?

Bernard Lee (12:58)
I think a great mentor is somebody, first of all, who cares, who listens, who knows when to speak, somebody who can actually identify good traits in an individual and hone in on those and and help that person, you know, reach their their highest potential. and also a great mentor when I say listen, I mean because it is it’s a two way thing.

Matt Allred (13:21)
For sure. Yeah.

Bernard Lee (13:21)
Be honest with you because

a lot of times what I find in older people is that we tend to think that we know it all. but there there are things that you can actually learn from the generation that’s coming up behind us. and so that’s why I say you have to have a listening ear, you have to be able to know when to be quiet and to listen, because you’ll learn a lot from them as well. And a lot of times there’s a

a disconnect and and that could be related to technology where things have moved along farther and so the younger generation are more likely to adapt to that. So they can teach you some things about technology, and where things are today and you can kinda find medium for the two to meet for you to have

Matt Allred (14:04)
No, I like I like the way you said

that because you’re right. It you know, the mentor knows the protege, whatever, maybe doesn’t know, but but to your point, they just know different things, I

Bernard Lee (14:11)
Exactly.

Matt Allred (14:12)
was thinking of my eighteen year old son, you know, we were playing pickleball the other day and he got after me for something, and I’m like, Wha what are you talking about? Well, I I apparently did not understand some of the etiquette on the court. And you know, he’s played tennis, he’s you know, a lot better.

at those sports

Bernard Lee (14:28)
Yeah.

Matt Allred (14:29)
than I am. And so I had to pause. I kinda had to humble myself for just a minute and like, what what are we talking about here? Right. And he’s

Bernard Lee (14:34)
Right, right.

Matt Allred (14:35)
like, Dad, you don’t do that. I’m like, okay

Bernard Lee (14:39)
Right.

Yeah. You can learn a lot from them. I was it that reminds me, not to go off course here, but I have a grandson who’s 17 years old. So, you know, occasionally my team at work we will do team bonding type things. So we all went off to play pickleball as one of our team building events, right? So my grandson has my

we share locations because he l he lives with me. So we’re at the pickleball place one day and he shows up and he’s like, I saw you were here on, you know. So he comes and he just kind of takes over because he and his friends, you know, this is a place that they frequent as well. So he comes in and he just kinda takes over from me playing with the rest of my team. And I mean he’s killing it. And I’m like, you’re just a show off dude. So

I mean I get way when you when you talk about how, they they know a lot more than us in some areas. So we don’t know everything. So

Matt Allred (15:35)
Well, and I think that’s an important part of being a mentor is is

Bernard Lee (15:38)
Yeah.

Matt Allred (15:38)
being humble enough to learn the things that you maybe don’t know and then knowing when to impart what you do. ‘Cause ’cause

Bernard Lee (15:42)
Yep. Exactly.

Matt Allred (15:45)
it’s not to your point, it’s not a one way street and it’s not like the person being mentored is always receptive, right? There are times when it’s like,

Bernard Lee (15:52)
Exactly.

Matt Allred (15:52)
No, let me let me try this and then then I’ll listen to you, or maybe I won’t or

Bernard Lee (15:57)
Right.

You’re absolutely right. Because there’s one young man that I mentor, and I don’t care what advice I give him, he’s going to do the opposite. And so I used to get frustrated, but I say, you know, each person has to do things their way. you know, not everybody listens and does what you recommend. They they may say, okay, well, you tried it that way. Let me try something different. So it used to frustrate me when he would do the opposite, but now I’m like, okay, whatever.

Matt Allred (16:23)
Well, yeah. I mean, I I guess we all I’ll speak for myself. I I often learn by doing the wrong thing first, landing

Bernard Lee (16:29)
Yeah.

Matt Allred (16:29)
on my face and then realizing I need to tie my shoelaces or

Bernard Lee (16:31)
My point exactly.

Matt Allred (16:34)
so no that’s great. you had said that that experience is in danger of being lost. if if veteran

Bernard Lee (16:40)
Yeah.

Matt Allred (16:40)
technicians retire without passing that along, what does the industry lose?

Bernard Lee (16:45)
Well, again, you lose a lot of time because now the folks coming in have to make that up somehow and they have to figure

those things out on their own versus having the information passed down. You know,

I there a story comes to mind. I I remember I had a supervisor once, who was not very nice to me, by the way, but it taught me a lot and I respected

her because of the fact that she was definitely

open, honest, and truthful with me, where I was asking for some help on something, and she clearly said to me, Hey, I’ve got mine, you’ve got to get yours. So I knew going in, and I said to her, Well, I’m glad, you know, that you were honest in and how you told me that. I said, but just know this, you’re gonna have to allot me the time that it’s gonna take to know what you already know and could pass on to me.

Matt Allred (17:34)
Yeah.

Bernard Lee (17:35)
that’s why it comes to mind is because you’re losing time trying to make up, figure things out that someone else who’s been there and can tell you, you know, hey, here here are the pitfalls or here’s something you need to be on the lookout for. but yeah, so it definitely takes time.

Matt Allred (17:49)
It takes a lot of time and and it’s not like you can you know, you get one one mechanic retiring with fifty years of experience. You can’t just hire fifty new people and think in that one year they’re gonna catch up, right? Because it’s the more you put into it, right, it it builds.

Bernard Lee (18:00)
Not gonna happen. Yeah.

and even the mentee, so to speak, is not the same. You may have somebody who is more vigorous and more nosy, who’s you know, takes initiative more. So there’s no guarantee in how long it’s gonna take to learn

Matt Allred (18:15)
Yeah.

Bernard Lee (18:15)
something.

Matt Allred (18:16)
Yeah, very true. Very true. You know, we we talked about you know, just the the education, and even kind of the decline of hands on learning. And you know, do you think we’re producing fewer people who maybe enjoy figuring things out? Or or what is the I don’t know, what’s the contrast in your mind?

Bernard Lee (18:34)
Well, I don’t wanna get political, but I will say this that I think our schools could do a better job. I think we’re so structured in some ways that we don’t do justice to the pupil or the student. because we we want everybody to learn the same way and it’s not gonna happen that way.

so a lot of times you’ve gotta meet a student where they are. And a good teacher knows that. Good teacher knows that not everybody’s gonna be on the same path at the same time or at the same

Right. But good teachers recognize that. I if I think back to some of the best teachers that I ever had were the ones who took the time to be hands-on, take a little bit more time with me or, you know, with my peers and figure it out. But now a lot of that stuff is so structured that it’s difficult, f for teachers to really teach and to hone in on you know the skill set that they recognize in kids and be able to

Matt Allred (19:25)
Sure.

Yeah,

Bernard Lee (19:26)
to pull that out of.

Matt Allred (19:27)
yeah. Yeah. What do you think previous generations had that that maybe today’s generation doesn’t have as much?

Bernard Lee (19:33)
well definitely technology. but I think there was more hands on experience. We they didn’t have any more time than what we have today, but I think they made better use of the time and again, just kind of spent more time with the individual and learning them and helping them along. And there were more programs. I mean, I I remember when I was in high school, I mean we had trades and

Matt Allred (20:00)
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Bernard Lee (20:00)
things of that sort,

classes that we could take to see if we had any interests. And I think you and I had this discussion when I mentioned before about myself as a kid, I would I would break things purposely. And when I say break it, I take a screwdriver whatever and take it apart because I wanted to see, I was curious to see how it worked. But you know, after a couple of times of doing that and your parents start saying, Hey, why are you tearing up your toys

or whatever, not realizing, hey, this is a natural skill that I have and I’m curious. And so sometimes we cut we cut things short for people who that that there’s a natural inclination to, you know, to do certain things or to be in a certain field, but we get that cut short, you know, or we may get scolded because it’s looked at as being wrong. But again, a good teacher would recognize automatically, like, hey, let me just sit back and let’s see how this goes.

Matt Allred (20:59)
For sure. Yeah.

it’s like we have to be better at providing opportunities for people to learn, okay, what is underneath that? What is it that that makes this work? And if we need to, create those environments, then, that’s where

Bernard Lee (21:10)
Yeah.

Matt Allred (21:10)
we need to go.

Bernard Lee (21:11)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. But again,

Matt Allred (21:12)
Yeah.

Bernard Lee (21:13)
it kind of goes against the structure of how everybody’s expected to learn the same way. So, you know, the likelihood. we we’ve got to reconsider how we teach.

Matt Allred (21:22)
Yeah.

Bernard Lee (21:23)
Yeah.

Matt Allred (21:24)
Yep. Totally agree. Yeah. Thank you. And obviously AI is upon us, right? It’s kind of changing every industry. and you mentioned when we talked before that AI can be incredibly helpful, but it can’t fix an elevator, for example. Yeah. Yeah.

Bernard Lee (21:36)
not yet anyways. We’re not there yet.

Matt Allred (21:40)
Where do you see AI helping and and where do you think people are expecting too much from it?

Bernard Lee (21:46)
I think there are ways to help, but again, it’s gonna take time because like, you know, we’ve we’ve gone through and talked about some of the troubleshooting things, scenarios that could be given to a technician, for instance. I would suppose that a lot of that information could probably be shared, you know, like hey, if it’s if an elevator is doing this, chances are it could be this. So but again, you you still got that time element where you’ve got to

dive into it and read or whatever that’s gonna take time. Whereas if you’ve got someone who’s working with you hands on and and learning that experience, you know, in real time, it’s a little different.

Matt Allred (22:27)
Yep, absolutely. so Bernard, I got just a couple of questions for you before we wrap up. And the second

Bernard Lee (22:32)
Okay.

Matt Allred (22:33)
to last question. If you were sitting down with a CEO of an elevator company, what would you tell them about rebuilding long term customer relationships?

Bernard Lee (22:44)
well, I would say first and foremost that you’ve got to appreciate the team that you have in place. You know, again, w the turnover at a lot of these companies is at an all-time high. So I think definitely you’ve got to have employees that are dedicated, and dedication from the employee comes from knowing that the employer cares and is willing to put in the the time, the money, the effort that it’s gonna take to keep them on board

long term. The second thing I would stress to them is that there’s a need for them to partner somehow with private industry and or the educational system in order to funnel new people into that industry. And definitely you want to have people who have an interest in what you’re doing. So you’ve got to partner with these educational systems and and probably start out fairly early,

rather than later. And what I mean by that, rather than going to the high schools, maybe it’s better now to start with elementary or middle school and allow, you know, to see if if kids have this interest.

Matt Allred (23:53)
Yeah. No, I love that. And and what comes to mind is the old saying, you know, it takes a village, right? It in other words, it’s not the company’s, you know, responsibility or the or just the parents’ responsibility or even just the schools. It’s it’s all of us, right? If we want

Bernard Lee (24:07)
Right. Everybody.

Matt Allred (24:08)
to create the kind of, country, kind of you know, culture we want the the education system to serve what it needs to, we’ve all got a part to play in that. Yeah.

Bernard Lee (24:16)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep.

Matt Allred (24:21)
That’s awesome. So last question for you. for younger technicians or building engineers or even parents listening today, what’s your advice for developing the kind of craftsmanship and curiosity that creates long, meaningful careers?

Bernard Lee (24:33)
Well, first and foremost, again, I think you’ve gotta allow kids to be creative and explore. and I know a lot of parents mean well. they wanna keep us in a box. But I think I think you allow children to be children, allow them to to explore certain likes and dislikes. and then encourage them to to be a part of different organizations or something that’s gonna

push them into whatever it is they have an interest in. I think that’s the the first thing. and then again, just being able to recognize certain things and hone in on it rather than criticize it. A lot of times we want people to do what we want them to do rather than to tap into their natural born gifts. I always say we all have gifts and talent. So we definitely need to tap into them.

Matt Allred (25:26)
Yeah. No, I I love the way you say that. But and what comes to mind for me is that, you know, each person is their own unique individual and and we don’t know whether we’re parents or or mentors or whatever, we don’t know what kind of gifts they have. And so we we have to be open to what what are their gifts, what are their curiosities and talents, and then do everything we can to nurture and build those. Awesome.

Bernard Lee (25:49)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Matt Allred (25:52)
Bernard, this has been wonderful. I appreciate you you being with me today and and wish you the best as you continue in your in your work.

Bernard Lee (25:59)
Likewise. Thank you.

Matt Allred (26:01)
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