Building the Next Generation of Elevator Professionals (ABC Apprentice Program): LIVE BROADCAST
In this live episode, I met with Nick Tucker and Brian Thibault. Nick has been in the elevator industry for over 10 years and is a licensed elevator mechanic with experience in service, repair, modernization, and commercial operations. He currently serves as the Commercial Operations Manager at South Jersey Elevator. In addition to his operational role, Nick is a CET instructor. Brian is the Vice President of Education and Training at Associated Builders and Contractors New Jersey. Since entering the construction industry in 2002, he has advanced through nearly every level of the profession. Now, as a licensed electrician, secretary, and instructor for the New Jersey Electrical Group, Brian is dedicated to developing the future of the skilled trades. In this conversation, we dove into one of America’s only non-union elevator apprenticeship programs, and how it can give young people more access to the elevator trade.
Chapters:
- 00:00 Introduction
- 00:03 The Workforce Crisis in Construction
- 02:00 Misconceptions About Skilled Trades
- 04:48 The Importance of Apprenticeship Programs
- 07:59 Corporate Investment in Workforce Development
- 10:41 Nick’s Career Journey in Elevators
- 14:00 Brian’s Career Path and ABC’s Mission
- 16:51 The Role of ABC in Workforce Development
- 19:40 Finding Opportunities in Skilled Trades
- 22:41 Elevator Apprenticeship Program Development
- 25:52 Training Structure and Safety Protocols
- 29:52 Skills for Modern Apprentices
- 33:50 Opportunities After Completing Apprenticeship
- 36:59 Starting an Elevator Apprenticeship Program
- 39:53 Innovation in the Elevator Industry
- 40:46 Recruiting for Apprenticeship Programs
- 42:46 Apprenticeship Enrollment Process
- 45:54 Middle School Construction Camps
- 46:51 Rapid Fire Questions and Insights
- 51:46 Future of Workforce Development and Apprenticeships
Resources:
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#podcast #elevators #trades
Transcript:
Matt Allred (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast.
Matt Allred (00:03)
Today we are talking with Nick Tucker and Brian Thibault.
Matt Allred (00:07)
Nick Tucker has been in the elevator industry for over ten years as a licensed elevator mechanic with experience in service repair, modernization, and commercial operations. He currently serves as the commercial operations manager at South Jersey Elevator, where he oversees complex projects and works closely with customers to deliver safe, reliable
Vertical transportation solutions. In addition to his operational role, Nick is a CET instructor, teaching and mentoring the next generation of elevator professionals. He’s passionate about sharing practical knowledge, industry best practices, and real-world experiences that have shaped his career. Brian Tebow is the vice president of education and training at Associated Builders and Contractors, ABC, New Jersey.
Since entering the construction industry in 2002, he has advanced through nearly every level of the profession, including electrician, electrical sales representative, electrical foreman, project manager, instructor, lead instructor, and director of apprenticeship and workforce development. A licensed electrician, as well as a secretary and an instructor for the New Jersey Elevator Group, Brian is dedicated to developing the future of the skilled trades, and his career has been built on hard work, continuous learning,
And a commitment to creating opportunities for the next generation through education, mentorship, and workforce development. So, gentlemen, welcome. Great to have you here with me today.
Brian Thibault (01:31)
Thanks for having us.
Nick (01:31)
Thank you for having me.
Matt Allred (01:33)
Yeah, it’s great. So what I want to do first is just talk about a couple of headlines. So there’s a headline in the news that I I saw it, you know, a few weeks ago. I even brought it up a time or two. But the construction industry, according to ABC, needs an estimated three hundred and forty-nine thousand new workers this year just to meet the demand, highlighting the growing need and importance of apprenticeship programs and workforce development. ⁓ Brian
Talk a little bit about that headline. That’s a huge, huge number. How are you seeing that show up?
Brian Thibault (02:05)
So the problem we’re having right now in the construction industry is that for every eight people that retire out or leave the workforce, only one person is back filling those spots. And as time progresses, the average age of the people in the workforce is getting higher and higher. I think in the electrical world, the average age of a field employee is about 43. So.
there’s nobody back filling those roles. So without that, there’s more and more openings in the construction field that need to be filled.
Matt Allred (02:43)
Yeah, that’s crazy. Nick, what are you seeing
in the on the elevator side?
Nick (02:46)
So like Brian said, we’re getting a lot of mechanics who are retiring now and then we’re just not getting the backfill in there and new guys aren’t coming in and getting trained yep yet, or there’s not through the schooling is just not coming in fast enough. Wow. I mean eight to one is is such a huge
Matt Allred (02:59)
Wow. I mean, eight to one is is such a huge
ratio to not be seeing those people come back in. And ⁓ so obviously it highlights the need to have an apprenticeship program. ⁓ what do you guys think, ⁓ Brian? You know, what what are some misconceptions that students and maybe parents have about actually getting into the skilled trades?
Brian Thibault (03:22)
So one that a lot of people have is that it’s a secondary or it’s a career for
for people that aren’t as smart or for people, it’s a backup plan. And it’s anything but. In In all of the trades that you go through, there’s a lot of knowledge that you have to know in order to move ahead. And that’s also pushed by a lot of your high schools and secondary schools and things like that, where they’re graded on how many people go to college. And not that college is a bad thing, it’s a great thing if you know what path you’re going on. But if you want to go on that construction path, which is not a secondary
choice, you can go into an apprenticeship and there’s a lot of money being made in that pathway.
Matt Allred (04:07)
Yeah, no, absolutely.
⁓ Nick, what are you know, how does the com the elevator industry compare to some of the other construction trades?
Nick (04:09)
You know, how does it come?
So one of the ⁓ the big things about El Variety is we kinda do it all. We go from welding to plumbing. When I mean plumbing, plumbing an oil line, not water plumbing, ⁓ electrical schematic reading, electrical theory, ⁓ electrician work. It’s it’s a lot of different trades rolled into one. And and it takes years and years of practice and to be able to say, Yeah, I know it all, it’s never gonna happen. So the continuing education, whether it is through the apprenticeship or just taking online classes afterwards or learning a different
skill from a manufacturer, it all has to add up.
Matt Allred (04:48)
Yeah. How does it compare like pay wise?
Nick (04:51)
Pay wise.
Pay wise, so the more you put in, the more you’ll get out. ⁓ you know, you if you wanna just skate by you’re gonna make the minimum on that on that pay scale. But if you really wanna succeed, the more education the better. The more valuable you be you become.
Matt Allred (05:07)
Yeah, absolutely. So ⁓ obviously that’s a huge headline. That’s a huge number. And especially you’re saying, you know, three hundred and forty nine thousand additional workers. That must mean that there’s a million or two million that are retiring every year. And and so we we need that, ⁓ or maybe I’m doing the math wrong, but but there’s a huge number retiring and we’re just not replacing is what I’m hearing you say.
Nick (05:08)
So ⁓ obviously
Matt Allred (05:32)
⁓ the other the second headline I want to hit is that Meta has announced a major workforce academy trained to or devi designed to train electricians, welders, fiber technicians, and other skilled trades workers for the growing data center infrastructure. And ⁓ you know, the the news was saying that ABC is among the organizations involved in helping build that. But very interesting, right? That a large corporation is like, hey, we’re gonna help.
find and and train workers. ⁓ why do you guys think that large companies are suddenly investing so heavily in apprenticeship program programs? Brian, any thoughts on that?
Brian Thibault (06:14)
Sorry, I hit the wrong button there. Big companies are jumping in because they see the problem. They see that there’s nobody there to pick up the slack, nobody there to start building these things that they want to have built. ⁓ So I mean, I do welcome it. mean, any bit of training that you can get or that we can put out there, I want to be part of. I want…
If somebody’s going to be building something, if somebody’s going to be working on something, I want them to be trained and I want them to be trained well. And if I can be one of the people that helps train them and if ABC and if, you know, our elevator apprenticeship can can assist in that, that’s what we want.
Matt Allred (06:52)
Absolutely. Yeah. Nick, what what are your thoughts on that? I mean, a hundred and fifteen million is a is a pretty big investment for this company that’s obviously not in the elevator in industry, but I’ve heard that there’s some pretty robust elevators going into these ⁓ you know, into this ⁓ data data center infrastructure.
Nick (07:10)
Right. It it’s a lot of where instead of having one avenue of getting workers, it’s exploring different options. You know, if this takes this long to get me, well why can’t we just do it by ourselves? As long as we’re getting trained, you know, the the right way and actually doing the the proper work, then yeah, go for it. This is where it should be at it’s it’s it’s giving different options is what it really is. Yeah. Well what it says to me
Matt Allred (07:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Well and what it says to me is too
is that they’re they’re probably seeing a you know, maybe it’s lost revenue, right? If we don’t get people in there, we we’ve we’re building these buildings or trying to and we we can’t complete them. We can’t we can’t make the the impact on the market that we want to. So, ⁓ it’s do you guys think that the skill labor shortage is becoming like a national economic issue?
Nick (07:59)
⁓ it it’s becoming again Brian. I I think that it definitely could lead to that.
Brian Thibault (07:59)
I think that…
I think that it definitely could lead to that.
Again, supply and demand, the less people you have working in the field, the more you’re to have to pay those people and the more choice they have on where they’re going to go to work and what they’re going to work on. And if they don’t, if they choose not to work on these data centers, then they’re just going to sit where they’re at. So like you have to build that workforce in order to keep things moving.
Matt Allred (08:30)
Yeah, absolutely. Nick, what are your thoughts?
Nick (08:33)
Well I agree with Brian. It it’s exploring the different options and and knowing where we can get the workforce steadily and be able to ⁓ not control but be be able to monitor how the income is and then that kind of situate your your bills down the road too. How fast can we train to build? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a good point. So ⁓
Matt Allred (08:54)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s a good point. So
I’m just gonna r do a quick shout out to the audience and ⁓ would love your thoughts in regards to both these headlines as far as you the numbers that are needed, these this big ⁓ skilled trade initiative by meta. You know, would love to get your your take on that, but also any questions you have. We will go ahead and address those here in a few minutes. But we’re gonna dive quickly into Nick’s career journey. And Nick, just wanna understand how you
your career began in the elevator industry. What drew you into into what you’re doing now?
Nick (09:26)
into in what you’re doing now.
So originally I went to school ⁓ to be a manager. I I was working at Hertz for a while, doing pretty good there, and then one day they just laid me off. That was it. And I was talking to to Bill, ⁓ Bill McGrath about coming over as a sales rep. ⁓ when I got laid off I gave him a call I’m like, hey man, like I I kinda need to start now instead of what we were talking about before a couple months later and then it was all right, well you start Monday.
Started out in the field a little bit, went into sales and did horrible in the sales. It just it wasn’t I’m not a sales rep. ⁓ so he he put me in the field as an apprenticeship and it’s it’s hands down the best thing that ever happened to me as far as w my work career goes. It’s been a lot of fun. I love my job doing it. So it sounds like you got a chance to kind of try sales and realize, hey, that’s just not exactly what I need to be doing. Right. And then you were able to pivot back into the trade and
Matt Allred (10:00)
Gotcha.
So sounds like you got a chance to kind of try sales and realize, hey, that’s just not exactly what I need to be doing. And then you were able to pivot back into the trade and
into the, you know, the the more technical side, I guess, right? And found it.
Nick (10:23)
Yeah, and
I and it definitely helped me as far and like I’m back in the office now doing sales here and there, not as much as like my position isn’t sales driven. ⁓ but it helps me with my sales pitch because now I know exactly what is going on and what part I need to explain to the customer. Yeah, absolutely. So
Matt Allred (10:41)
Yeah, absolutely. So
⁓ how how pivotal was it that that you knew Bill and were able to work with him and and he didn’t just, I’m just gonna fire you from sales because you suck or yeah, you know, he gave you a chance to to really try a different avenue.
Nick (10:59)
People do say like he he’s not the friendliest guy in the world and I and I don’t see it. He’s always been there for me and my family. And to give me that, you know, option to hey, just go back in the field and do this is the it’s the best thing ever happened. Well and to
Matt Allred (11:13)
Yeah. Well and to me that’s
kind of what a an apprenticeship is, is you get a chance to to try something and you know, maybe you have to, you know, it sounds like you’re becoming a better salesperson as you learn the technical right, but but to me an apprenticeship pro program is is learning all the different pieces that that go into a business, right? It’s not just learning, you know, one thing or or a specific skill a lot of times. It’s it’s all the skills that that support that. ⁓ in my mind at least.
What what would you say that they’re the skills that have helped you move from the field then into leadership?
Nick (11:51)
Some of the skills I I built up over the years, you know, working in different jobs as management, whether it was with Hertz or working in an acme as as management, ⁓ and being able to communicate properly to my team. ⁓ I definitely think in this industry learning the terminology and actually not just, yeah, this is what you need, explaining this is why you need it instead of just here it is. And that definitely helped me my
Matt Allred (12:13)
Yeah, no,
absolutely. What do you wish you learned or known at age twenty?
Nick (12:20)
I wish I would have started sooner. ‘Cause I didn’t start I I didn’t get in this inner training towards about twenty eight, twenty six, in that range. And definitely starting sooner was definitely where I needed to be. ‘Cause I again I went to college, I had my associates and not saying it was a waste of time, I just wish I got in a trade sooner.
Matt Allred (12:37)
Yeah. Yeah. So just just being aware of it, right? Maybe we weren’t aware that that was a choice. Yeah.
Nick (12:42)
Right. Yeah.
In high school it was either you went to college or you’re you’re you’re just a bad kid who keeps getting in trouble or not smart enough. So here’s a trade.
Matt Allred (12:52)
Yeah, yeah. So how did workforce development become a passion for you that that you decided, hey, I’m gonna be an instructor?
Nick (12:59)
⁓ definitely it it’s a lot to do with there’s more options out there than just either a college or nothing. And being able to be a part of this and building a program with the apprenticeship is definitely it in it helps me inspire the next generation. So I can train somebody to basically just take my job.
Matt Allred (13:17)
Cool. Cool. Well and and there obviously there’s plenty of jobs out there, right? I mean we we talked about that. So it’s not like you’re gonna be replaced. ⁓ so Brian, let’s talk a little bit about your your career and and also understanding ABC and its mission. what has your career journey looked like?
Brian Thibault (13:35)
So I grew up, ⁓ my father was an electrician. ⁓ When I was in high school, it was, I’m gonna go to college, I’m gonna do something different. ⁓ I went to a couple of years of college as electrical engineering ⁓ and then ended up right back just working for my dad’s company. ⁓
When the economy kind of fell apart a little bit in like 2008, 2009 era, didn’t affect us until a couple of years later. So I ended up working for a supply house where I learned the distribution side of things. To Nick’s point, I never thought of myself as a salesman, but sales becomes actually easier when you know the product.
So, and that’s why, like, uh, I could, I don’t want to speak for him, but you know, if he went into sales, he didn’t like it. Then he worked in the field for a while. Now he’s back in sales. It’s probably because he can speak to it better and knows it better. Knowing the product makes selling a product a lot easier. Um, but also learning that side of things on how.
Matt Allred (14:26)
For sure.
Brian Thibault (14:46)
how things get to the job, lead times, things like that. It furthered my career as an electrician. Then I ended up going back and working for another electrician and became a foreman, eventually a project manager. And it was at that point that we started realizing, I’d probably say that was in the 2016, 17 era, we started realizing that our workforce,
Matt Allred (15:08)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Thibault (15:16)
As we were pulling from growing our workforce, we didn’t like what we were getting. So we started deciding to kind of grow it on our own. So we started staying after helping teach the next level of helpers in our company. The deal that I made with my boss at the time was if I’m going to train them, then I get my pick of them for the job. So little self-serving. ⁓
Matt Allred (15:39)
Right on.
Brian Thibault (15:42)
Growing that, then we decided that it would be great if they could get some sort of credential for this. So we looked into what it was to get, to build our own apprenticeship. We ended up getting linked with ABC ⁓ and started, that’s where I started teaching for ABC as a part-time instructor while still working in the field. And then just kind of grew from there, went from.
part-time instructor to a full-time instructor to the lead instructor, and then eventually made my way as a director of apprenticeship and workforce development here, and now have made it to vice president of education and training. ⁓ So to me, that’s a good story in the sense of like, I got, had some college, but I didn’t have, have like a master’s degree or anything, but it’s just, just continued working on myself, continued furthering my education. ⁓
and going from there. ⁓
Matt Allred (16:38)
Very cool. Yeah. So tell
me a little bit about ⁓ ABC, like the the mission. I mean, I’ve heard it about it, right? But really didn’t know that much about it. But ⁓ what what is the mission of ABC?
Brian Thibault (16:51)
Ooh, you’re gonna, you’re catching me in a bad spot. I don’t know that off the top of my head, but the, the, the general idea is that anybody, ⁓ that the person most qualified should be the one that gets the job, ⁓ regardless of what labor affiliation you have. So like, if you, if you work hard and you’ve earned to that spot, you should be able to have that spot. ⁓ the one thing I do always say is like, we are.
Matt Allred (16:54)
You don’t have to quote it exactly, right? But
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brian Thibault (17:17)
We are not anti-union by any means. Like if the union wants to run their business the way they want to run their business, by all means. We just want people within ABC to have the ability to run their business how they want, as long as they are paying a livable and a good wage to their people. Like we always want to make sure that we are taking care of our workforce. When it comes to training,
I just want people like me personally, I want people trained. ⁓ Again, I said earlier, you know, if somebody is going to be out there working on something, I want them to be as safe and as trained as possible so that the product is good and that the people are safe and going home at the end of each night. And if that means somebody gets a job, you know, with the union or whoever, you know, with a contractor, I want them to be taken care of and I want them to be safe and trained. So.
Matt Allred (18:05)
Yeah, absolutely.
What kind of companies are typically members of ABC?
Brian Thibault (18:10)
A typical member of an ABC is a merit-based company or a merit shop type company, open shop or typically non-union. But again, we have no problem with any unions.
Matt Allred (18:23)
For sure, for sure. What ⁓ what makes the apprenticeship programs such a an important part of ABC’s strategy?
Brian Thibault (18:32)
So it’s one of our biggest benefits. So ABC as a whole is a membership organization that provides benefits to its members. The members pay their dues to come in and then we provide benefits for them. ⁓ I think one of our biggest benefits is our apprenticeship program, the ability to train your people, the ability to build the workforce for your people as you grow your business.
Matt Allred (19:00)
Yeah. What so I’ve got you know, I’m seeing, you know, some questions popping in from the audience. One is just how do people who maybe don’t know much about the trades find these these options, right? I it sounds like, you know, you’ve obviously got multiple apprenticeships going on. How do young people find out, for example, about you know, maybe they wanna be a plumber or whatever?
Brian Thibault (19:21)
So we are trying to get more into career fairs in high schools and colleges or other, junior colleges, colleges, things like that. We’re trying to get out there to any of these trades career fairs just to show that that is an option. ⁓
I think one of the biggest hurdles that we talk about is how schools downplay what the trades are. I hope that that seems to be changing. ⁓ We’re seeing more and more high schools are actually considering and some are already bringing shop classes back into the high schools, ⁓ like trade classes into the high schools or giving options for places to do that. But again, we’re kind of at the beginning of that.
know, hopefully that continues ⁓ and we see that growth. ⁓
Matt Allred (20:13)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean,
when I was a kid, right, there were several shop classes, but those, I guess, kind of went it went away. And and obviously there was a a big push nationwide that everybody needs to go to college. But, you know, my dad was a 30 plus year educator and he used to say, you know, not everybody’s cut out for college, right? There are a lot of kids. He in fact he would say twenty percent of the the population can benefit from college. The others have other gifts, right? They need to be doing something else. And and so I’m glad that you’re you’re reaching out and and helping those people find
places where they can succeed because not everybody’s gonna gonna thrive in that, you know, the academic side.
Brian Thibault (20:48)
One thing I will also
say to that is, you say not everybody’s cut out for college, not everybody’s cut out for the trades. It ⁓ is a business that has to be right for you. The last thing I’m going to do is continue that process or thought process of this is a fallback.
Matt Allred (20:55)
True. So true.
Mm-hmm.
Brian Thibault (21:08)
⁓ There’s a lot of knowledge that has to go into and the right person, it’s got to be the right fit. Now, hopefully if anybody is interested in it, we’re doing those career fairs, we’re doing those things, but they can also just reach out, like reach out to trade schools, know, reach out to ABC, reach out to, you know, technical, you know.
text schools, VOTEX, things like that, and see, or just talk to other, like if you see a contractor somewhere, ask them questions. Most contractors are willing to talk about what they do.
Matt Allred (21:40)
Yeah, that’s a great great comment. Any ⁓ misconceptions about AD ABC you’d like to clear up while we while we got John here, right?
Brian Thibault (21:48)
⁓ A big one a lot of people say is that we are unsafe. I actually disagree. think we spend ⁓ safety tends to be first and foremost for any for any ABC members. We push that with our safety committees and various options we have for making your job safe. And then the other thing is that we are anti-union. I said earlier we are not anti-union. We are just pro
work like pro workforce and we do want our people to be taken care of. We have things in place to try and make sure that happens. ⁓ But again, safety that that’s our number one concern here at ABC.
Matt Allred (22:27)
Very cool. Well, let’s talk for just a minute about the elevator apprenticeship program. ⁓ Nick, from your perspective, how did this program come about? I know, you know, it’s just curious from your perspective, yeah.
Nick (22:41)
So originally when we started it was just working in Bill’s house, ⁓ a little plastic table, drawing on a T V screen with dry eraser marks, to learn how to print reading and pretty much the first two years of the of our apprenticeship is mostly safety training, like Ryan was saying, like th the whole aspect of us not being saved. You we go through so much training, ⁓ we have to be OSHA 30 in our company. ⁓ it was it’s a lot. And and then on top of that, you know, to build into
different classrooms and then you know, bringing in different simulators now, bringing in different vendors to come in and show us their product and a teach us how to, you know, work on their particular ones. It’s definitely night and day from where we started from. Yeah. So how did you guys get connected?
Matt Allred (23:23)
Yeah. So how did you guys get connected
with with ABC and and kind of make this this partnership?
Nick (23:29)
So we started out with an ABC. Bill originally started out with that. ⁓ I’m I think pretty much when the the company started, he linked up with the guy from Delaware Elevator and said, Hey, you should look into ABC, they would help you ⁓ grow. And that’s pretty much what it turned into. And then it slowly progressed into this looks like something we can do here, and now we’re building a whole training facility with I think three test hours, four test hours now. Wow. Yeah. So so Brian, was that great?
Matt Allred (23:51)
Wow, very cool. So so Brian was that ⁓
Brian Thibault (23:53)
Three
test towers.
Matt Allred (23:56)
Okay. W was that a con a call that basically came to you, Brian? And then you said, hey, you know, let’s we’ve got all these other programs going on. Why not add a an elevator apprenticeship?
Brian Thibault (24:07)
I wish I could take credit for that, actually Bill McGrath did most of the heavy lifting on that. he what we found was that there’s a there was a national apprenticeship that was accepted in different areas, the CET program. So. He wanted to have he wanted to see what we could do, so we basically sat in a few meetings.
Matt Allred (24:23)
Sure. Through the N N A C. Mm-hmm.
Brian Thibault (24:35)
took the CET program, ⁓ looked through it, made sure everything was good on our end, and then we submitted it to the, well, so New Jersey is a US Department of Labor ⁓ run state, so we submitted it to the US Department of Labor for them to check off, and they agreed that it’s acceptable training and ⁓ signed on it. So that gave us the ability. ⁓ But like I said, a lot of the work was done by
Bill McGrath there. ⁓
Even though I oversee paperwork on that, if it’s outside of electrical though, the big thing about our program is in order to be an instructor or to kind of run any of those programs, you have to be journey level or higher in that craft. So while I can oversee the paperwork or the logistics on things, ⁓ I need people like Bill and Nick to be the ones that actually administer that training because, you know, what do I know about an elevator? I need somebody that can answer those questions.
and be there to pass on that knowledge.
Matt Allred (25:40)
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. ⁓ so Nick, what is ⁓ what does the the program look like like starting day one? You know, if someone was to join and and start to be trained and taught.
Nick (25:52)
So day one y you you automatically you get your first set of books and the first set of books goes over literally the history of elevators. It brings up Elijah Otis and the safeties. Then it goes into these are the basic tools you’re gonna be working with and the first two years is mostly just safety driven training, meaning ⁓ you know, how you properly re rope a car or
How do you secure a car, you know, when you’re cutting the cables off the elevator, how do you make sure you’re everybody’s safe at all times? And then years three and four goes into electrical theory. That’s where the real ⁓ thought process has to come in as far as anybody could put a wire just ’cause the paperwork says to put it there, but to understand why that wire’s going there, that’s what your year three and four really builds into. Sure. Well
Matt Allred (26:36)
Sure. Well and and
as I understand it, you’re also, you know, you’re you’re training people who are working in the trade, right? So they’re seeing this day in and day out and getting to apply this this learning, the right, the classroom training ⁓ in their in their job every day.
that right? Is Brian’s out work, Brian? Okay.
Nick (26:55)
Yeah, so ⁓
the whole time they’re doing it, they’re ⁓ in the books it gives you l certain skills that the y your mechanic has to sign off on. So when they’re doing something, they they have to either watch it and then do it the the next w time, ⁓ depending on what job it is. Obviously we’re not gonna send them in there here, ruin up a car on your second day. It’s a lot of sit back and let’s let’s walk through every process bit by bit to make sure everybody goes home at the end of the day.
Matt Allred (27:03)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Now it makes sense. What are Nick, what are some go ahead.
Brian Thibault (27:22)
So with any…
So
with any apprentice program, there’s a certain criteria that you have to meet. Every apprenticeship has to have a minimum. And again, this is minimum, it can be more than that, but it needs a minimum of 144 classroom hours or related theory instruction hours. So that would be like the going through the books that Nick’s talking about and the classroom time. But then every apprenticeship also has to have 2000 hours per year of what’s known as
Matt Allred (27:39)
Okay.
Brian Thibault (27:53)
the job learning. So while you’re learning those things in the books and the evenings and the night classes and possibly weekend classes you’re also then applying it to your business or the what you’re doing at ⁓ during the day so like your your working hours during the day you’re applying all that and then you have a you have a foreman a journey somebody journey level or higher that is also signing off on your hours during the day that that’s your
basically accruing to give towards your apprenticeship.
Matt Allred (28:24)
Gotcha. So two thousand hours is is approximately a full time job, right? I mean, there’s a couple of weeks in there for vacation.
Brian Thibault (28:29)
So yeah, it’s
a 2000 hours is a 40 hour work week for every week, but two weeks of the year. So there’s two weeks of vacation built in. ⁓ If you do more than that, you accrue more hours than that. But unlike whatever type of pay, if…
If you work past 40 hours or if you work past eight hours in the day, that doesn’t mean you get time and a half or double time on your hours. Like 42 hours is 42 hours. it’s like pay is different hours towards your apprenticeship. That’s hour for hour.
Matt Allred (28:55)
Sure. Sure.
Yeah. So when are classes usually held? Is it evenings, is it weekends? How how does that work out?
Nick (29:09)
So most I’ll let you Yeah. So for our classes we do ours at night, we do it once a week. We ⁓ usually I reach out to the the people who are in the class, like, hey, what day works best for everybody? And then we’ll do it every night or once a week, whether it’ll be in the classroom or by the simulators, and then we work it out that way.
Brian Thibault (29:09)
So most, I’ll let you.
Matt Allred (29:27)
And you’ll what, two or three hours, or how how long do those classes go?
Nick (29:30)
classes go.
Two three hours we try to keep it at. anything because it gets real late and again we we’re all working too. So we we all come back out and sometimes sweating everything and then go right back into class. So we try to keep it around two hours, but we’ve had a couple classes go much longer ’cause just because we go into a depth conversation with, hey, this guy saw this was weak. All right, let’s go step by step at how do we come across that.
Matt Allred (29:52)
Yeah. No, that that’s really cool that you like say they have simulators, you have the coursework, you you know, you can really focus on things those things that, you know, maybe maybe they need a little bit more time on, you know, troubleshooting electrical circuits or or some of the the theory or or print reading. ⁓ I am curious, Nick, what are some skills that that maybe today’s apprentices are are learning that ⁓ maybe weren’t such a thing 10 or 20 years ago?
Nick (30:19)
⁓ mainly now is technology, learning how to use it properly. And just because, you know, Chat GPD says this house big, they’re knowing to when to filter through and like all right, you gotta double check a couple of things and be able to just go to work and do your job and then make sure you have all the knowledge you when you got there and leave leave it all fingers and toes too. For sure.
Matt Allred (30:39)
For sure. ⁓
Nick, what what surprises most new apprentices about the trade? I mean, are are they surprised? And if so, what is it that
Nick (30:48)
How much work’s involved. They d they just think, okay, yeah, you just landed the wire here, we’re good to go, or everything comes pre assembled. And yeah, some things come pre assembled to an extent, but in our cr in our industry, it’s a lot of figuring out as you go, just because the paperwork says it has to go that way, doesn’t mean it’s gonna fit that way. And you know, checking the egos at the door is a big one for us. You know, there’s there’s ever it’s a one big team. There’s no ego here, it’s on the best one on the job site. We’re all here to s accomplish the same goal.
Matt Allred (31:17)
No, it’s cool. ⁓ Brian, just how does how does an apprenticeship program prepare people for long term careers rather than just jobs? I think that was something you mentioned earlier, and I just wanted to dig into that a little bit.
Brian Thibault (31:30)
So number one, apprenticeship programs are gonna, if you’re gonna go through an apprenticeship program, it’s gonna give you a level of accountability. Like I said, there’s minimum hours you have to hit. So right out of the gate, you have to make sure you’re hitting those. You have to make sure you’re passing your tests, that you’re doing your own job learning, that you’re showing up for enough hours of class that you pass the test. And then that you demonstrate when we do our performance testing, that you demonstrate that you can, you know,
perform the items that you said that you could as you kind of grew in the class. ⁓ But it also just, you know,
A lot of companies kind of retain a workforce by training them. So again, anybody in our apprenticeship is employed by an ABC member. That ABC member has basically footed the bill to pay for that apprenticeship. ⁓ And then that employee sees how a company invested in them and then state and tends to stay there. ⁓
tends to stay there for the long haul. That’s not always the case, but it’s just a, it’s something that, you know, they invested in me, I’m gonna work for them and builds a sense of loyalty. And then hopefully that person as they grow brings on the next person. Like I know for me, I was taught by my dad, but when like that gave me a desire to then pass on what I know. As Nick said, you know, I wanna be that person that
teaches somebody to take my job one day, you know, like it’s, and I’m going to try and stay sharp to keep my job and I hopefully one day retire out of it. like nothing that people that are instructors tend to want the best for their students and want their students to outshine them. ⁓ So.
Matt Allred (33:20)
Sure.
Yeah. I I like that. You know, especially for the the long term career perspective, which kind of leads me to the next question, which is you know, once you’ve got in, you’ve got the license, the the training, ⁓ you know, what are some of the opportunities that exist? Cause I I I do know people who, you know, once they get their license a few years later, they’re starting their own company. They’re, you know, they’re kind of advancing because they now have the skills. What what would you say, Nick, are some of the opportunities that open up once you complete
The apprenticeship.
Nick (33:51)
So once you complete your apprenticeship, you you automatically you’ll become a ⁓ a licensed mechanic once you apply for your state or whoever it is. ⁓ every state has different licensing requirements. ⁓ but there’s always like for me it was get my CET, which is my certification, and then become a C E T S right away, just so I can start teaching the next generation behind me, ’cause it’s already fresh in my brain and this way I can keep going and make sure somebody who can do the job can do the job when I ask them to.
Matt Allred (33:59)
Mm-hmm.
Right,
right.
Nick (34:22)
Yeah, that’s really where I need to be at. And then also like there’s other avenues. You can go down inspector if you really wanted to. ⁓ for me that’s the retirement goal, I think. If I wanted something to do on a side, inspector ’cause most times they’re just there. So that’s where I think it’s gonna be at.
Matt Allred (34:35)
Yeah.
Sure. Well, I mean, if there’s a parent or high school student that watches this, why should they consider this career path? Nick, what would you say?
Nick (34:46)
It’s really good money. It’s a lot of fun. ⁓ in the end of it, it it’s definitely a job where a lot of people think, I never thought about the elevator industry. It’s definitely a niche group there. And I think being able to build up that ⁓ repetition or reputation, sorry, of yeah, we are one of the king of the trades just because we can do mostly everything, whether it’s welding or wiring, electrical, anything you need, we can get it handled.
Matt Allred (34:49)
I mean
That’s that’s really cool. And I and I do know a lot of people that are really passionate about that what they do and love it. Brian, what would you say to that question? You know, what what would be the reason to consider this type of career path?
Brian Thibault (35:23)
So
initially, as Nick said, I would say the money. I’ll say I wish I started earlier too, but when I was a foreman, watching, I got my work truck and I pull in and I’m for my helpers to get there and I’m watching them pulling in nicer trucks than I have at home because they have no expenses right now and they’re making a ton of money. But that’s initially long-term.
There’s stability and like, so eight people retire, one person leaves. Like you’re going to be needed. like, there’s going to be some stability in that job. Like there’s going to be, and, as that happens, you’re going to be able to name your price. So the money’s going to be there too. AI is not going to stop, you know, AI is not going to install an elevator. You’re still going to need people to install an elevator. AI is not going to wire a house. You’re still going to need people to wire a house. ⁓
And as Nick said, that, if you, if you have the mindset of continuing to learn throughout your career, you’re just going to get further and further. Like if you’d told me when I was eight, you know, 21, 20 years old, that I’d be running a school one day, I’d have told you, you’re a liar.
because of what I’ve done in the industry, it’s opened a lot of doors for me. And as Nick said, I’m ⁓ always continuing to try and build my education. Like I’m working on being an inspector for the state. And even if I never use it, it’s just something I want to make sure I have under my belt because it’s a door that was opened to me because of the industry that I was in.
Matt Allred (36:59)
Right, right. No, that’s great. So Brian, wh if there is an elevator contractor that is interested in doing something like this, maybe in a different part of the country, what would be what would be the first step to to actually starting a an elevator apprenticeship?
Brian Thibault (37:14)
So there are ABCs, like so we’re the ABC New Jersey chapter, but there are 67 ABC chapters throughout the country. So you can reach out to us or you can find that local chapter and reach out to them. All of those chapters, again, that’s a member benefit organization that wants to, you know, benefit their members. So reach out to that ABC, see if you can become a member and
they will probably want to continue that training. And if we have a template, like we have a template here in New Jersey, obviously different states have different rules, but like they could use our template and our assistance to maybe help build that down or over there, wherever that is. It’s not a guarantee because again, different states have different rules, but.
Matt Allred (38:03)
Sure, sure. I you
Right. Well, and you and you told me different different branches have different k you know capabilities, right? They may or may not have a a VP of education. But ⁓ certainly, you know, if you’ve got the template and and they can, you know, get that from you and some support, it sounds like there there could be opportunities to build more of these around the country is is what I was thinking. Awesome. So let’s let’s take just a minute and and answer some audience questions. You know, if if you’re listening, part of the audience today, feel free to
Brian Thibault (38:23)
I agree.
Matt Allred (38:34)
to put your your comments or questions in there. But we’ve got a few here that I want to kinda ⁓ bounce through. I know that we, you know, I I brought one up just a minute ago. ⁓ one of the questions here is, you know, it is just asking like how, you know, do you, ⁓ Brian, do you guys go into high schools and maybe start a little earlier than just college fairs to to try to get that engagement with students and
Brian Thibault (38:58)
So we’re working on that more and more. We have a couple of our local high schools that we’re trying to get into some more. But one thing that we’ve also started the past two summers is we’ve done a middle school construction camp, a couple different cohorts of that. It’s two per year where we just introduced the trades to middle schoolers. ⁓ And then some of the outreach programs around here, we’ve also tried to spread the word about.
you know, getting people into apprenticeship or into the trades. ⁓ But it is something that we are trying to do better at. ⁓ As I said earlier, I have noticed a an uptick on high schools actually trying to bring those classes back and we support wherever we can without without spreading ourselves too thin. But like, you know, we want to do as much as we we can to to get that word out there.
Matt Allred (39:53)
Sure, sure. Well and it it takes a community, right? It takes ⁓ it takes a lot of different voices and and you know, for a long time the voices have been, you know, just go to college and and skip the trades and and obviously we can there are things we can do to to change that message that no, we need these jobs, they they pay well, they you know, you’ll you’ll love them and we’ll train you how to do ⁓ so it’s I think it’s great that you you do what you can and ⁓ try to get try to get people in there. ⁓
The there’s a question here from the audience about just kind of the the the amount of innovation. And ⁓ they’re just curious, you know, how much innovation, like how much change is going on. Nick, do you want to speak to that when it comes to hardware and software and ⁓ you know as as things become maybe widely adopted from innovation, how much change do you see in your work?
Nick (40:46)
Our in our industry alone, it it’s constantly changing. Different versions, different boards, different manufacturers. One guy can go, I can do it this way, but then complete different manufacturer. Well, we can do it the same way, but different. And that’s where you know continuum education comes in, where just because you pass your your license test doesn’t mean it stops there and be able to adapt to different ways of doing things instead of saying, Nope, this is the only way we’re gonna do it, this is this is it. It it’s it’s constantly changing every day for us. Sure.
Matt Allred (41:14)
Sure. Well,
it sounds like there’s a lot of options out there that that you would yeah, have to train people on. hey, we’re we’re going away from this supplier because what maybe they can’t get stuff to us, right? And so now we’ve got to go over here. We’re gonna have to train on this different form factor or something. ⁓ good, good ⁓ comment there. ⁓ one question here is just asking you, Brian, you know, do you actually like recruit companies to join the programs? It sounds like your members kind of come to you or or
Nick (41:15)
It sounds like there’s
Matt Allred (41:43)
How does that work, I guess, to get companies into your apprenticeship program?
Brian Thibault (41:47)
Just a little of both. ⁓ Word of mouth is huge. ⁓ We have a lot of people in our state that come to us because of legislation that was put in place. A lot of companies come to us because in order to be on a public works job, they have to be involved with an apprentice program. ⁓ that New Jersey has that, you know, in place to promote apprenticeship. ⁓ But
Matt Allred (42:06)
Okay.
Brian Thibault (42:16)
We also, as I’m around talking to different people, I go out to different industry things and just say, what benefits are you looking for? Because again, ABC as a whole is a member benefit company. it’s not just apprenticeship. It could be networking. It could be safety training alone, not other training, just safety. It could be ⁓ benefits in terms of 401k or retirement. ⁓
health care plans and things like that. like ABC as a whole has a lot of benefits for its members. ⁓ We just, you and maybe it’s because I’m part of it, but I think that our apprenticeship is one of our biggest benefits. ⁓
Matt Allred (43:00)
For sure, for sure.
So it sounds like you yeah, you have a lot of benefits to offer. And so if if a company is looking for the support that you have, yeah, that sounds like a huge one, especially just given the conversation we’ve had with all these jobs needing to be filled. And and I see from my perspective that there’s a lot of companies that are that are limited in in their ability to grow until they can fill those roles. And, you know, I think it happens to a lot of companies that that’s the biggest limiting factor, in other words. So
It’s a a huge benefit. ⁓ one question here is ⁓ just in regards to ⁓ and and maybe Nick with this one’s for you, how do you like is there a time of year that you say, hey, apprenticeship opening up or how how do you make that known in the local community that, hey, we’re, you know, bringing on new people or what does that look like?
Nick (43:49)
new people.
So we went into Pecotech a couple times in ABC the same thing. Like, hey, we’re getting ready be hiring. You know, when your next class graduates or your next program ends, let us know. Send us a couple applications of who you think would thrive in the industry or who’s really trying to make a change in it. They already let’s say they’re our colonic and they just want to try something different. Hey, send the application, you know, we can definitely look into that. ⁓ as far as
Recruiting like that, it’s just it’s everything’s word of mouth for us. It’s hey we’re hiring, we’ll put a a couple of applications out on the ⁓ or help one assignment or whatever you want to call on the internet. Like hey and then we’ll filter in that way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Matt Allred (44:27)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well no you
say word of mouth is is great and and obviously there’s some that just get they may not heard that hear that word of mouth. So ⁓ I guess that’s why we’re doing this too, right? Is to get the word out that that hey, these things do exist.
Brian Thibault (44:40)
Now with ABC
apprenticeships, we can enroll students anytime during the year, but our school year is the typical school year. our classes will typically start in the September, October area and go until the May, June with some breaks. So like that’s when like a year one will turn into a year two, a year two to a year three and so on. But we enroll people at any time and then they’ll just start at the next cycle.
Matt Allred (44:57)
Okay.
Right. No, and and and I think in order to be enrolled they have to be as you said, they’ve got to be an employee. So they’ve got to kind of join at the entry level, the apprenticeship level, and then that becomes one of their benefits is the training.
Brian Thibault (45:17)
Yes, sir.
So
that’s, to be in an ABC apprenticeship, you have to be working for an ABC company. And again, any company can reach out and see what it takes to become a member of ABC and then that allows them to enroll their students. But everybody in our program is working for an ABC company.
Matt Allred (45:41)
Yep. Yep. Makes a lot of sense. ⁓ one other comment here, just that that ⁓ construction camp sounds awesome. That in regards to the you said middle schoolers who are doing construction camp or something. So
Brian Thibault (45:54)
So this year we have here at our South Jersey location we have a construction camp the second to last week of July and then at our North Jersey location it’s the second week of August. We are actually adding through one of our partner companies Aspire Outreach we’re adding a girls camp ⁓ the first week of August so it’s going to be all ⁓ actually high school aged ⁓ ladies.
Matt Allred (46:18)
Very cool.
Very
cool. So how would they get more information if they’re interested in enrolling their their children in in something?
Brian Thibault (46:29)
They can reach out. ⁓ I don’t know if my email is in there, but you can reach out to me. ⁓ And again, we have a template. ⁓ will credit where credit’s due. Our template is based off of ABC Keystone, which is Central PA’s template. So I don’t want to steal the credit for that. They kind of came up with that one.
Matt Allred (46:51)
No,
but it’s awesome that you can share them. You said you have numerous different, you know, branches of ABC. So the fact that you can 67, the fact that you can share those between, ⁓ just makes it ⁓ available to so many more people. So that’s that’s great news. ⁓ so gentlemen, this is awesome. I’ve got one set of of kind of do just do some rapid fire questions as we wrap up this last 10 minutes or so. And I think I’ll just ask each of you the same question.
Brian Thibault (46:57)
67.
Matt Allred (47:20)
So it’ll be kind of a a quick question, quick answer. Don’t, you know, don’t worry too much if if it takes you a minute to think about it or whatever. But just kinda wanna kinda wanna get through a few of these and just get your your take. And then I’ve got one one final question to hit both of you with as we as we wrap up. ⁓ but I’ll start with you, Brian. What is the best career advice you’ve ever received?
Brian Thibault (47:42)
Best career advice I ever received was never stop learning. ⁓ Whatever craft, whatever trade or whatever industry you go into, even if it’s not the trades, just never stop learning. Always try to better yourself. ⁓ Every certification that you get on your resume increases your price tag.
Matt Allred (48:02)
Awesome. Nick, best career advice you ever received.
Nick (48:05)
I think Brian’s still on my notes, I was gonna say the same thing, never stop learning as far as you know, you go into a room and you hear the guy says, I know everything, I don’t need to do anything, he’s probably the dumbest one in the room. And that’s the way I always looked at it with that.
Matt Allred (48:19)
Gotta gotta
be open. ⁓ second question, Brian. One thing every apprentice should learn in their first year.
Brian Thibault (48:26)
Well, you should learn in the first year you’re going to start at the bottom, at least in the trades. You got to earn your keep, you got to earn your way up. A lot of people think that they’re going to start out running a crew, doing this. Now you’re going to start at the bottom and you’re going to earn your way. So how you treat people, how you talk to people is also going to make a difference. And always stay busy. Just keep pushing. Don’t sit there with your hands in your pockets. Don’t sit there.
Always be moving.
Matt Allred (48:58)
Yep. Awesome. ⁓ Nick, same same question.
Nick (49:02)
So I wanna add to that. So me the I was always told as an apprentice, especially first year, there’s always something to clean. Don’t be standing there, put the cell phone away and go find a broom or ask the your mechanic, Hey, do you need me to do any kind of organizing in the truck? Find something to clean and and don’t just stand there.
Matt Allred (49:20)
Awesome. Brian, biggest misconception about the trades.
Brian Thibault (49:26)
Biggest misconceptions that’s for, and I said this earlier, that’s for dumb people or et cetera, a fallback. ⁓ Anybody that succeeds in the trades are some of the smartest people that I’ve met. ⁓ I mean, don’t get me wrong, you can get by, but if you want to succeed, it’s not for stupid people. It’s for…
people that are willing to work, people that are willing to learn, people that are willing to better themselves.
Matt Allred (49:59)
For sure. Nick, biggest miscon misconception.
Nick (50:02)
Misconception.
Again, same thing I think Brian actually still on my notes. It’s it’s knowing ⁓ to go in there and thinking is you know, this is all felons or this is all just people who couldn’t make it through high school and that’s not the case. I met some of the smartest people I’ve ever worked with in the f in the industry as far as engineering and coming up with different ideas, it’s definitely a misconception as far as
thinking that this is it. This is the only way I I can’t make it in college. This is what my fallback is.
Matt Allred (50:33)
Right, right. Nick, what’s the most underrated skill in business?
Nick (50:39)
Money management. ⁓ definitely being able to manage your own money on top of, you know, if you’re running your own company, you know, managing that. There was actually a really good book called Rich Dad Poor Dad. ⁓ definitely homed in my my money skills.
Matt Allred (50:56)
Awesome. Brian, what do you think the most underrated skill in business is?
Brian Thibault (51:04)
That’s a good one.
Business.
I don’t know right now. I’m drawing a blank. I apologize.
Matt Allred (51:19)
It’s
all It’s all good. Well, let’s do one more of these ⁓ rapid fire. Nick, one tool you cannot live without.
Nick (51:28)
⁓ tweaker. So or a terminal screwdriver. It’s to the point where I have one, two, I think I even have a third one here. I don’t. I keep at least three on me. I this I can’t live without these tools. Right on. Brian, what about you?
Matt Allred (51:39)
Right on. Brian, what about you? Tool
one tool you can’t live without.
Brian Thibault (51:42)
As an electrician, a tester. You want to make sure things are de-energized before you start messing with them. Or if you know they’re energized. I would never say that you should work on anything live. It happens, but the safety side of me says not to. But a tester, a tester would be the most important tool.
Matt Allred (51:46)
Right.
Awesome. Awesome. Well, let’s do ⁓ one just closing question here and Nick I’ll start with you. When we’re having conversations, you know, five years from now, what do you hope has changed about workforce development and apprenticeship in America?
Nick (52:19)
me it’s definitely having the different options. Instead of having just one option of apprenticeship, there’s many different ways of going about it. Even in as h starting in high school, could bring back the trades there, or you know, coming out of high school, either going to college and college like, Hey, maybe this is a different avenue should you explore, help them with that.
Matt Allred (52:39)
Brian, what about you? In five years from now, what do you hope has changed about workforce development and apprenticeship?
Brian Thibault (52:44)
I hope in five years that it’s not an eight to one ratio anymore. I hope that it is something we end up talking about as they pass, you know, in five years, I want to be like, five years ago, it was eight to one. Now, you know, we’re at two to one or one to one. Like, you know, I hope that you end and I want people to be coming out trained. want people to be out, you know, ready to be in the workforce.
Matt Allred (53:09)
Right on. Well, Nick and Brian, thank you so much for being with me today. It’s been a lot of fun. ⁓ apologize for that little echo that was harassing us, but it’s been a real ple ⁓ pleasure, privilege, and I appreciate you both being on here today.
Nick (53:23)
Thank you so much.
Brian Thibault (53:25)
Thank