The Pain of the General Contractor: LIVE BROADCAST with Jeremy Avraham
In this episode, I met with Jeremy Avraham, founder of LiftSync, to discuss how all parties working on an elevator installation can work together to save money, reduce stress, and enjoy the process.
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Transcript:
Matt Allred (00:05.772)
All right, welcome. We’re going to get started here in just a minute.
Matt Allred (00:58.24)
Well, welcome to the Elevator Careers podcast. This is our first live stream. I’m your host, Matt Allred, and we’re excited to have you here today. Today we’re discussing the pain of the general contractor. And we’ll be going into elevator scopes and why those are often one of the most challenging parts of a project. And more importantly, what can be done to improve it. So before we introduce our guest, I just want to look at a few headlines, news headlines from the elevator industry this week.
Obviously, the big headline is KONE to acquire TK for $34 billion, creating the largest elevator company globally. There’s been a little pushback already. One saying that antitrust rules that have once derailed this could come up. However, KONE is banking on a change in Europe’s approach to the merger. So we’ll see how that goes. In the Korean Herald, we see that Hyundai has launched modular
high rise elevator systems. Supposed to make installation time 40 days faster, obviously requiring less field labor. So again, we’ll see how that one goes. It was announced by the Associated Building Contractors, ABC, that the US construction industry will need approximately 349,000 net new workers in 2026 and 456,000 additional workers in 2027.
on top of normal hiring just to keep up with supply and demand. And the last one for today, the elevator modernization market is experiencing substantial growth projected to expand from 14 billion in 2025 to over 15 billion in 2026. And by 2030, it is anticipated to reach 20 billion. Anyway, lot going on, obviously bigger companies, faster construction, real workforce pressure, growing demand.
and interestingly, shortage of talent which can lead to coordination breakdowns, confusion, delays, frustration, which is why we have our guest here today. Today our guest is Jeremy Abraham. Jeremy is the founder of LiftSync, a consulting firm focused on simplifying one of the most misunderstood parts of construction, the elevator scope. With more than 25 years of experience spanning both elevator industry and general construction,
Matt Allred (03:24.748)
Jeremy brings a rare inside both worlds perspective to owners, contractors and developers. Jeremy, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you here.
Jeremy Avraham (03:33.518)
It’s great to be here, Matt. Thank you.
Matt Allred (03:35.68)
Yeah, thank you. As I was reading through those headlines, is there anything that popped out to you in regards to our conversation today?
Jeremy Avraham (03:43.574)
Absolutely, yeah. think the common thread and everything that you just mentioned is that, you know, with all these changes, you get more variables. And anytime you introduce more variables, it introduces more risk. You know, the product changes, the acquisitions, the new technology, all that creates internal disruption within the elevator companies. you know, these new systems, the new leadership, the changing priorities.
know, teams are learning in real time and all this trickles down to the general contractor and architects as well. So now the GC is trying to do their thing while the elevator side is still stabilizing. And, you know, the hard part is they don’t always have visibility into what’s going on and with all these changes. And so the biggest risk, you know, I see isn’t just the complexity, it’s that.
Matt Allred (04:26.892)
For sure, for sure.
Jeremy Avraham (04:40.664)
GCs are being asked to react to moving targets they can’t fully see. And that’s where I see a lot of projects struggle is, GCs are making decisions with a two dimensional view of what is really a three dimensional problem. And they’re getting a snapshot in time, but it’s not the full picture of what’s really happening behind the scenes.
Matt Allred (05:04.456)
Absolutely. Well, and you’ve worked on both the GC side and the elevator side, right? And so, you know, having built your company really to focus on solving problems for GCs is a very interesting take. I think it’s one that I’ve never heard of, honestly, until I met you, somebody who specializes in consulting for the general contractor side.
Jeremy Avraham (05:26.296)
Yeah, you know, they need love too. You know, it’s a big world. I got a lot of love to give. I observed a lot of common issues when I ran an elevator company myself and I noticed there were just very common problems that occurred over and over, you know, even with the small companies and the large companies. And so we took a different approach and we did a lot of handholding.
Matt Allred (05:28.224)
Hahaha
Jeremy Avraham (05:55.276)
which is really where our value was because we weren’t lowest price. But we were able to solve those issues proactively and very interpersonally. And the problem is the larger companies, it’s really hard for them to do that. And so I’m stepping in this role. I love my job. I love what I do now. And my goal is to help out in these areas.
Matt Allred (06:18.528)
Yeah, yeah. Let’s get specific for just a minute. What did you see in the field that made you realize this is a problem worth solving?
Jeremy Avraham (06:27.062)
Yeah, like I said, very common issues. a lot of them were very preventable, know, like using the right set of drawings. A lot of times general contractors and architects have you know, they have their coordination going on office to office. And then, and then it has to go down to field too. And sometimes there could be, you know, for whatever reason, a gap there. And then there’s a gap.
a variable where the elevator companies have their input too. And the construction process may have already started. And so the pit might already be poured. They’re operating off the architectural drawings that were approved, not necessarily the elevator submittals. And so that’s a big coordination gap.
Matt Allred (07:16.458)
Right, when did you kind of come to this? I mean, obviously having worked on both sides, how did you start to put this together that, this is something I can really add value to?
Jeremy Avraham (07:28.766)
Yeah, well, I’ve seen some really expensive mistakes. I’ve seen $100,000 mistakes. And I thought, if I can prevent that, there’s a business model there. There’s value that I can offer. And that’s just the technical side of things. This goes a lot deeper. We haven’t even talked about, which I’m assuming we will.
Matt Allred (07:54.262)
Sure, absolutely.
Jeremy Avraham (07:54.414)
some of the trust issues, you know, this is a relationship between elevator companies, general contractors, and that relationship sometimes needs some repair.
Matt Allred (07:57.34)
yeah.
Matt Allred (08:07.52)
Right, no, absolutely. So let me ask you this. mean, feels like, you mentioned, know, general contractors need some love, right? But I don’t know any other elevator consultants that really focus on that. So how do you describe it to them, right? How do you, I guess, sell that service to people who aren’t used to even knowing it exists?
Jeremy Avraham (08:29.386)
Yeah, that’s really the biggest challenge for me is creating that awareness. And the other consultant companies, they do their good job. have their space, right? And what they typically lean into is the specifying the project’s demands, what the ownership wants, what the architect does use as a basis of design.
And then they will do some monitoring, but really at the end is where they come in and they say, okay, it either meets it or it doesn’t meet it. And that’s kind of where it stops with them. And so I saw an opportunity to really help in between that process, know, helping with the coordination pieces.
Matt Allred (09:18.23)
So you’re saying they’re creating the spec and they’re saying, hey, yeah, that meets the spec. And so getting involved in the middle, what about pre-spec? I don’t know. I’m ignorant enough to ask the question. I mean, is there value there?
Jeremy Avraham (09:30.35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The pre-construction piece is huge because a lot of the really costly long-term impact decisions are made within that 5 to 10 % pre-construction decision making. And so you can have a small decision that has a $20,000 to $300,000
impact on the lifetime of ownership of the elevator. So for example, you could make a really restrictive specification that just has one controller that’s accepted or one company for whatever reason. That company names their price when they bid it, but that company also can name their price when they service it for the life of the contract. And that’s a huge difference.
Matt Allred (10:02.988)
Sure.
Matt Allred (10:22.508)
for sure.
Jeremy Avraham (10:26.446)
in cost for the owner. And so now we’re not just talking about technical details of what’s in the spec and if we’re meeting and we’re talking about, like what kind of long term relationship do you want to have with the owner that’s hired you to build their building for them? But is this something that you’re looking for repeat business? Because once they find out that, hey, there’s only one company that can service my elevator and it’s costing me buko bucks, like that
that’s going to be in their minds the next opportunity.
Matt Allred (11:01.004)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and certainly, yeah, on owner side, obviously the architect, the consultant, some of those folks aren’t maybe as involved on that end. so, I mean, if it’s just, I guess, if the consultant is just helping in the specification, then it might be just like, hey, not my problem. You it’s just, you know, you can deal with that down the road. I don’t know. And maybe you see that.
Jeremy Avraham (11:22.838)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I see that in, you know, that those companies are busy too. They have national accounts and, you know, thousands of buildings that they’re covering maintenance. They’re modernization. They’re covering construction. So it’s, it’s a wide array of work that they have to do. And, and there’s a lot of pressure on them to get that done and hit certain numbers. And so
You know, what I offer is, you know, a more boutique approach where it’s more interpersonal, there’s more hand holding, there’s more walking through big picture and things like that instead of involvement early, involvement at the end. And so really, I mean, I’m involved with projects where my services are valuable and the big consultant company services are valuable as well.
Matt Allred (12:20.448)
Yeah, absolutely, right? It sounds like it’s a kind of a hand in hand, but maybe from a different perspective, right? They may be servicing, they meaning the other consultant may be working with the owner, whereas you’re working with the general contractor to make sure that they have the right things that they need to start building. So, you know, one question here, why do the same preventable issues keep showing up again and again in your opinion?
Jeremy Avraham (12:46.946)
That’s a tough question. It really depends on the companies involved, the elevator companies, the general contractors. I think there are items that are more difficult to coordinate and they’re more sequence driven. One of the biggest issues I see is timing and sequencing, which has a domino effect on those common issues. So elevator companies,
Matt Allred (13:03.756)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (13:17.368)
typically have a very structured and strict payment policy. And the general contractor also has, as GCs know, they have their policy too and their terms and what they’ve agreed to. And when you try to get an elevator involved early, sometimes those payment issues prevent you from being proactive in your planning. they might…
be in a situation where they pour a pit when they have their final elevator drawings. So that’s a really common issue is they start construction before they have final elevator drawings. And every single elevator person that’s watching this, every project manager that’s felt this pain knows exactly what I’m talking about. It’s… Yeah.
Matt Allred (14:04.608)
Does it happen that often? mean, honestly, I’m scratching my head going, and you’re kind of trying to describe to me, you know, the, some of the issues of, well, we can’t pour until we have, you know, some money or we can’t, you know, we need some kind of money down. But, but the idea that, hey, we’re going to start in this project and we don’t yet even have the final drawings is scary.
Jeremy Avraham (14:26.124)
Yeah, yeah. What I see often is, and it depends on the size of the company, but with smaller companies, it could be an email that goes back and forth and says, hey, can you get me close? Can you get me safe? So the elevator company shoots them what they have. They start building, which it can work out, but it’s a risk, right? It’s a huge risk.
Matt Allred (14:50.092)
For sure.
Jeremy Avraham (14:54.688)
I see a lot of value in helping the general contractor right from the beginning find creative ways to solve some of those problems.
Matt Allred (15:04.372)
Absolutely, yeah. So where would you say most break down? Is it design? Is it coordination? Is it the execution? And obviously if it’s gonna break down at the beginning, it probably could break down multiple times.
Jeremy Avraham (15:17.902)
Yeah, it’s often a reactive issue. That’s the most common denominator is it’s a reactive issue that could have been prevented. The problem is, like I mentioned, that two dimensional approach to a three dimensional problem. It’s really hard for a general contractor that has to supervise and be QC for all of these different scopes.
And then you have the specialty scope, elevators, which account for three to 5 % of the project value, the contract value, but has such a disproportionate impact on the success of the project. And so that’s really where I see a lot of opportunity there.
Matt Allred (16:06.078)
Absolutely. So why would you say so many general contractors have a strong frustration around, I mean, you’ve talked about in certain areas of the country, it’s like they almost hate to go there, right?
Jeremy Avraham (16:20.536)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I live in one of those areas. know, it’s a little comical in the sense that when a GC finds out they have an elevator on the project, they might be making a quick run to the nearest pub. It’s usually accompanied with emotional and mental frustrations because of past experience.
The different unions in different areas of the country, they have different cultures and that could impact, it can impact the project. It’s really complex. The elevator companies locally have different struggles too. They have different growth cycles, they have different leadership changes, and everybody is really struggling.
I think especially when the new installation economy picks up, it’s huge. Everybody’s scrambling, everybody’s hiring, everybody’s trying to increase their workforce, and the elevator industry does the same exact thing. so you might have somebody that’s green and doesn’t know a whole lot about elevators. might be their first project, and you don’t have the ability, maybe the general contractor is restricted to add to his headcount somebody that’s
really experienced. so that’s when it’s really helpful to involve a specialist, you know, that doesn’t add to your head count. And it’s not a permanent fixture within the company. So it allows them to gain that expertise temporarily as needed.
Matt Allred (18:07.936)
Yeah, Let me ask you this. This is a little bit, I don’t know if it’s off the subject, but it came to mind, you know, as we’ve been talking because change orders, for example, I, you know, I’ve worked with companies and I’ve helped place a lot of PMs and they get bonus sometimes on change orders. And then I have one client in particular that says, we don’t do change orders, right? If somebody’s got a change order, we screwed up because we didn’t, you know, we all screwed up because the…
Jeremy Avraham (18:32.802)
Yeah.
Matt Allred (18:34.496)
The plan wasn’t ready, they hadn’t decided, whatever, we started too early is kind of the idea. And they kind of cringe at the idea that anybody would do a change order. But my question is, it does, know, bonusing people on change orders does seem to motivate, well, let’s tell them half the story and I’ll get more bonuses because they’re gonna have to change. Is this part of it or am I just making stuff up?
Jeremy Avraham (18:51.618)
Yeah.
Jeremy Avraham (18:57.774)
No, you’re accurate. Yeah, no, that’s correct. You know, different companies have different structures. Change orders are historically really profitable and that’s why you’re starting to see more specifications that call out caps. You know, there’s a percentage cap on change orders and that really speaks to, you know, some good proactive involvement early on with, you know, the…
the forethought to include language like that in the contract that says, wait a minute, okay. Yeah, sometimes there are unforeseeable events, And those are legitimate. And then there’s scope gaps. those are the ones that really hurt. And so it’s really helpful to make sure that everyone’s happy, that the elevator company’s covered within reason.
But it is very interesting that it’s being incentivized in the industry.
Matt Allred (20:00.886)
Yeah, just an observation, right? It kind of came to mind, especially when that one client was like, no, we don’t want to do that.
Jeremy Avraham (20:08.406)
Yeah, well, yeah, it changes the mentality because instead of, shoot, we got to make this right, we got to fix it, we got to provide a solution. It’s like, well, now you’re incentivized for it. So now you’re thinking, hmm, how do we how do we get one of these, you know, right?
Matt Allred (20:25.036)
Get more? Possibly, right? Yeah. So I’m curious, I mean, it sounds like what I’m hearing from you is, certainly there’s a technical side of this, right? There’s just, it’s a very complex system. It’s a very complex process. It’s all very complex and yet how much of it’s human, how much of it is technical, I guess is what I’m trying to get at.
Jeremy Avraham (20:52.248)
That’s a great question. That’s a really good question. Yeah. I’ve got a good story about that. So I was working with the GC and it was a 2000 page spec. So it’s a huge spec, which is kind of typical for federal work. But just think of what the general contractor is facing. Like he has to have a PM, a PE,
Matt Allred (21:00.672)
Go ahead, yeah.
Jeremy Avraham (21:21.41)
you know, go through this and really manage every single trade, get pricing for it, identify scope gaps, account for that, and then execute. On the elevator side, the spec could be based off one manufacturer. And so it’s taking all the electrical data, you know, the controller data, the machine data, the type of machine, and it’s
It’s in it now it’s in a specification. And so to, you know, to a person that is not an elevator person that looks at this and they see, okay, one, two, three, four. And then they look at, you know, the elevator, what the elevator contractor is providing. And then maybe it says two, five, six, and they’re thinking, okay, well, this is not compliant. It doesn’t work when in reality it’s because this is a different company, you know, it’s different equipment.
It still meets the intent of the specification. And that’s really what can slow down a project. There’s those types of conversations that can go on forever and ever. And the submittal could look like a Hemingway novel, you know? And have a Hemingway ending, know, a sad ending. So there’s…
Matt Allred (22:35.936)
Wow, yeah.
Matt Allred (22:40.652)
Sorry, was just thinking of the one where the guy throws himself off a cliff. I’m like, ouch, you know?
Jeremy Avraham (22:45.26)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s a lot of pain. There’s a lot of pain in this process. And I think that in a lot of cases, know, general contractors get used to elevator companies get used to it as well. You know, they’re not really built to like a general contractor is they don’t have they’re not used to getting a specification with, you know, electrical engineer, structural engineer, an architect.
elevator consultant, another consultant, and then the GC, and then who knows what? All these markups on a document in the middle are like, what am I supposed to do with this? They’re not designed to operate that way like a general contractor is. so having somebody step in and act as a risk translator to translate between the two entities is super valuable.
Matt Allred (23:43.084)
Right, right. Well, and that’s where you come in, right? So walk us through a real example where a small misunderstanding turned into a major cost or a schedule issue or…
Jeremy Avraham (23:55.436)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s perfect because to piggyback on what I was saying as an example, the specification, you know, it had the electrical data lined out and what the elevator company was supplying was different. In addition to that, in this 2000 page specification, it called for two different speeds and
One speed was required if there was a certain amount of travel. What so happened that this project was just right on the cusp by six inches. So technically it required the higher speed. The elevator company was providing the lower speed. And that can be a change of a machine and a change of multiple things. It’s a domino effect once you change the speed. And so it’s also a delay with engineering even if you catch that change.
So GCs are working with, they bid the job to win it. So they’re working in an environment where there is so much pressure on meeting schedule and things going according to plan. These types of things can ruin those plans. But luckily we caught it. Because imagine if that equipment was manufactured, shipped off, they’re ready to install it.
then they find out, wow, we missed this, we gotta change out the machine. That could be a $100,000 cost difference, especially if you factor in the damages on the contract.
Matt Allred (25:30.08)
Yeah. How early did you catch it? mean, did you catch it enough that there was no delay?
Jeremy Avraham (25:35.394)
Yeah, we caught it early enough so there was no delay.
Matt Allred (25:38.668)
Wow. I mean that right there, I mean you just, yeah, saved $100,000, but you probably more than that by the time you figure in all the delay, right? You’re talking cost of 100,000. You’re not talking about whatever liquidated damages because you didn’t show up on time or whatever could happen.
Jeremy Avraham (25:49.725)
yeah.
reputation.
Jeremy Avraham (25:57.346)
Yeah. Well, also think about the impact that would have in the relationship between the general contractor and the elevator company. You know, it’s like, you know, in a marriage, you know, I, I like to use this analogy because it’s a relationship. You have finances, you know, you have reputation, you, you share these different things and like avoiding
Matt Allred (26:05.448)
yeah, for sure, yeah.
Matt Allred (26:13.27)
Right.
Jeremy Avraham (26:26.464)
a huge fight can bring about so much success. And avoiding that cost and that fight, well now you’re focusing on the things that are making you money and being productive instead of trying to fix something that was preventable.
Matt Allred (26:45.13)
No, absolutely. And I’m glad you brought that up, right? What happens to relationship, to the trust. And you mentioned to me that some GCs start budgeting contingencies from the get-go. It’s like, I know this is going to cost me an arm and a leg. I’m just going to plan on it.
Jeremy Avraham (27:03.202)
Yeah, yeah, think they get used to the pain. They are used to dealing with the pain and the mistakes and the issues that they’re now including money as a contingency. And what I like to tell them is, well, I mean, I can help you with that, right? You don’t have to include that money. You can use that money and…
you know, that would cover my costs. And you’ll have a better experience.
Matt Allred (27:38.071)
Right. mean, yeah, mean, getting used to the pain is, yeah, it sounds like that’s what they’re doing. They’re just kind of preparing for it, bracing for it. And hey, if you don’t have to end up paying out that money, well, great, we won, but we’re planning. It’s almost like an insurance policy because you know you’re gonna get sick or you’re gonna go to the hospital or whatever.
Jeremy Avraham (27:55.672)
Yeah.
Jeremy Avraham (28:01.538)
Yeah, wouldn’t it be nice to not have to use that?
Matt Allred (28:04.768)
Yeah, yeah. So tell me about some of the relationships that you’ve seen. I mean, do you see GCs like shake their head and go, I will not work with that contractor?
Jeremy Avraham (28:15.51)
all the time. But the funniest part about this is that it changes. Yeah, they’ll have a, you know, they’ll have a bad experience with one company. They’ll blackball them, you know, those will never use them again. Then things change. Then they have a bad experience with another company and then they’ll say the same thing. And then the cycle just keeps going and repeating.
Matt Allred (28:24.428)
Okay, tell me.
Matt Allred (28:43.893)
So maybe, well that bad experience was four years ago, but it’s not as fresh as the ones that burned me three, two, and one years ago. So let’s try these guys again.
Jeremy Avraham (28:55.404)
Yeah, and then you get changes, right? You get different personnel, new products, like you mentioned, you know, but it’s also like…
Matt Allred (28:58.102)
For sure.
Jeremy Avraham (29:06.434)
When you try somebody new, there’s pros to it and there’s cons to it. It’s unfamiliar territory. It requires an extension of trust. So wouldn’t it be nice if we could improve the relationships that have tenure and get to the root causes? And you can’t always do that.
Matt Allred (29:26.156)
For sure.
Jeremy Avraham (29:34.239)
If there are the opportunities there, think that that’s something that’s worth fighting for.
Matt Allred (29:39.127)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and you mentioned the change that there’s personnel changes, So and so got promoted and somebody else has been, is back filling them. Quick shout out to the audience though, where have you seen breakdown? If you’ve seen it happen, right? Is it drawings, communication, execution, scheduling, relationships? Invite you to drop it in the chat. I’ve seen just in my work as a recruiter, right?
I help people find jobs. And so I’ve wondered myself, like, okay, if this PM walks off that project, what is that going to look like? Right? It makes me nervous sometimes. You know, and they’re like, hey, I’m ready to go. I’m like, okay. You know, it’s your choice, not mine. Right? I’m not, there’s no such thing as poaching. It’s people choosing.
Jeremy Avraham (30:19.287)
Right?
Jeremy Avraham (30:29.164)
Yeah, and what is the market like right now for that?
Matt Allred (30:33.512)
I mean, we’re keeping busy. There’s a lot of movement, right? People are always interested in new opportunities and growing their career. But I think, back to your point, it does can create coordination issues if, well, that was the guy that knew what was going on. We’ve got a brand new team here and we’ve dropped some balls. We don’t know what’s going on.
Jeremy Avraham (30:35.821)
Yeah.
Jeremy Avraham (30:59.67)
Yeah, I have a client in Florida, it’s funny you mention this. He called me because he wasn’t able to get in touch with somebody. And this was for weeks, months, and he’s trying to get an inspection. And so my job was to find a way to get this company on the phone with him.
Matt Allred (31:22.026)
Wow, so he called you because he knows you and he’s saying the elevator contractor won’t talk to me?
Jeremy Avraham (31:23.288)
That was it.
Jeremy Avraham (31:30.776)
Yeah, and you know, there could be a variety of reasons why, you know, I don’t know exactly what happened, but you know, it just speaks to that relationship dynamic and how important that is. And also the personnel changes, like what I had heard was that in that area, there’ve been a lot of personnel changes and like that’s, you know, that’s hard to control, you know, in the construction industry, you know, in the elevator industry.
Matt Allred (31:34.922)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (32:00.46)
You know, those things happen.
Matt Allred (32:02.294)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Obviously you’ve got real pain, you got real cost, and it sounds like in lot of cases people just accept it, right? Even plan for it, budget for it. Let’s talk a little bit about how this actually gets better. You know, who knows, maybe there’s somebody listening right now thinking, yeah, that sounds like every project I’ve ever been on. What would you say prevents
these problems.
Jeremy Avraham (32:34.176)
It’s a proactive approach 100 % of the time. And the difficulty, you know, I was in sales, so I totally understand this, is that your goal is to win the job. And when you start adding more more costs, it makes it less likely to win the job. And so what I would encourage as a solution,
is to be as proactive as possible, as frugally as possible. Get the best bang for your buck. There are very practical steps you can take. Having somebody take a look at the different bids that you got, because there is so much opportunity there for addressing the scope gaps. That’s a huge issue. And then it’s pre-construction planning.
Matt Allred (33:09.568)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (33:33.048)
You know, what are the payment terms of the elevator contract? How could that impact you negatively? How do we plan for that? How do we account for it? It’s being proactive about everything and understanding that everything ties into everything that you have on the project.
Matt Allred (33:49.677)
Sure, So early on proactive and it almost sounds like that a lot of contractors would be wise to have somebody who can, I guess, see what the gaps are, see what the issues, see what issues they could run into and be able to, I don’t know, just look ahead and say, have we thought about this or even
Jeremy Avraham (34:05.954)
Yeah.
Matt Allred (34:18.444)
I don’t know whether they have them on staff or whether like you say, maybe it’s a consultant. What would you say building owners should plan earlier? Is there anything that they can do specifically?
Jeremy Avraham (34:31.384)
Yeah, you know, for both, think that having…
More vision, overall big picture vision is one of the biggest tools that they can employ. And it’s unrealistic to expect a general contractor, a building owner to know the market insights and their geography, right? Like they’re not gonna know how the five different offices are doing locally and staffing and…
Matt Allred (34:39.69)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (35:05.046)
And competency wise, they’re not going to know how many crews they have. They’re not going to know the competencies of those crews. They’re not going to know about products becoming obsolete or what’s on the horizon. so, you know, employing a tool that can be like binoculars, you know, so they can see farther downstream is huge for them. And with that is what their maintenance looks like for building ownership. You know, what long term maintenance risks they have.
what flexibility they have. The more flexibility you can give them, the better.
Matt Allred (35:40.03)
Yeah, yeah. So you said a tool. Is there a specific tool that can help them with that?
Jeremy Avraham (35:46.924)
Yeah, well, mean, it’s expertise, bringing in some technical expertise, which is why I formed LiftSync, is to be that tool that they can wield. Sometimes you need a scalpel, sometimes you need a sledgehammer. so just knowing that that exists and having that is half the battle.
Matt Allred (35:57.398)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Allred (36:04.972)
for sure.
Matt Allred (36:11.818)
Yeah, So one of our audience members is saying scheduling is where they’ve seen the biggest breakdown and I’m sure they all kind of, you know, work together to, you you talked about the, you know, using the drawings that weren’t finished. Sounds like a scheduling issue to me, but, you know, starting the project early. And honestly, I kind of shook my head at that. And then I had to step back and say, you know, I’ve started on recruiting searches before where I was like, hey, we’re going to fill this job.
Jeremy Avraham (36:30.893)
Yeah.
Matt Allred (36:41.886)
only to get halfway through it or weeks down the road and it’s like, no, what I really need is something totally different. It’s like, well, you maybe I was a little too exuberant, right? I jumped out there, spent a bunch of time and luckily it wasn’t hundreds of thousands of dollars in my case, but I can see how that’s easy to do.
Jeremy Avraham (37:03.116)
Yeah, you know, a real practical step that a general contractor can take is they can ask if they will get a project manager for the project. Elevator companies all have different policies and they’re all in the local branches can be built differently too. You know, oftentimes I’ve seen companies that won’t allocate a project manager to a project.
if the project doesn’t exceed a certain dollar value. Some companies it’s $3 million. That’s what it takes to be considered a large project and then they would get a project manager. Some companies go by complexity as well as dollar value. And so it’s just helpful to know what resources and support you’re getting with the elevator company.
Matt Allred (37:56.717)
So just to clarify, you’re saying that the owner could specifically request a PM from the elevator contractor and say, hey, this is something we want access to. We want this resource available to us.
Jeremy Avraham (38:11.276)
Yeah, the general contractor and for maintenance, actually they can get for a large maintenance contract, an owner can do that as well. They’re more of a, it’s more of like a resident mechanic that kind of operates in that capacity. But for, you know, for a lot of commodity projects, like low rise projects with hydraulic elevators, a lot of times it’s a salesperson.
Matt Allred (38:22.623)
Okay.
Jeremy Avraham (38:39.648)
a salesperson and the superintendent, they act as the PM and very rarely is the salesperson and a superintendent equipped to be a good project manager. And I’m not sure if that’s what the comment was about was that portion of scheduling or if it was more of a sequencing issue, if it was more like the elevator company’s never finished on time, you know.
Matt Allred (38:44.652)
For sure.
Jeremy Avraham (39:08.974)
That really depends on how I answer that question. There’s about 12 different ways to answer that question.
Matt Allred (39:13.974)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I had asked the question, you where have you seen breakdowns? And the comment was scheduling. So I don’t have all the background on that. no, honestly, even in my work, have seen there was a major elevator company several years ago that had me working to find project managers for them from general contractors. So specifically they wanted, and so I placed numerous project managers out of GCs into an elevator company.
Jeremy Avraham (39:20.085)
yeah.
Matt Allred (39:40.907)
because they were saying, we’re not very good at managing projects. We want somebody who knows how to manage projects to come work for us. And that was very successful for them, but they had kind of said the same thing. Yeah, we usually just turn loose, whatever superintendent or salesperson on the project and they aren’t always trained in project management. And so we can do better.
Jeremy Avraham (39:57.975)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (40:05.59)
Right. Yeah. I think it’s brilliant to get somebody from the GC side to be an elevator project manager.
Matt Allred (40:13.76)
Yeah, well, and obviously they’ve got some learning to do once they get to the elevator side, to understand. But they know project management, I guess was their point. Yeah.
Jeremy Avraham (40:18.07)
Right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely helps to know technical information about elevators and how they’re installed to be a good PM. But yeah, that’s very insightful.
Matt Allred (40:36.524)
Yeah, So what would you say architects can do differently to reduce downstream confusion? And let me just add a little question here for myself, and that is the architect seems a little bit removed from the pain. Is that true? Are they removed from the pain? I mean, do they just draw the picture and walk away or do they feel it when it collides six months down the road?
Jeremy Avraham (40:59.304)
I think it depends who you ask. And I’m sure the architects get that too. They’re not the ones building it. So I’ve been in the field. I’ve been installing something and I’m like, why do they think this could work? And not in the sense of a big project where…
Matt Allred (41:01.28)
Hahaha
Jeremy Avraham (41:28.77)
You know, there’s an architect and I’m installing an elevator, but in other trades and things like that. But the architect doesn’t, they do have to, they’d have to deal with redesign, right? And that’s not good for them. They don’t like redesign that doesn’t help them. And that impacts the general contractor too. You know, sometimes what looks good on paper when in reality it doesn’t, it doesn’t, it doesn’t mesh. It doesn’t work. And so.
Matt Allred (41:45.11)
Sure. Okay.
Jeremy Avraham (41:59.414)
So both the GC and the architect are both in pain and the GC can provide feedback and they can make adjustments. that’s part of the normal process. But like if you can minimize and mitigate the redesign, that’s very valuable. And right.
Matt Allred (42:16.638)
absolutely. Yeah. And it makes sense that they are feeling the pain, right? Especially if the GC is mad enough or whatever, it’s like, they’re going to feel it. I’m sure.
Jeremy Avraham (42:26.294)
Yeah, yeah. And what makes this really challenging is that there are different motivations in the industry. Elevator companies are motivated for their fiduciary responsibility to their company to make it so that they have an advantage in getting the work. I mean, just like any company wants, right? Like they want to win the project. That’s not a bad thing.
Right? I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. The problem is that when architects need help and advice, they’ll usually call an elevator company and that company is, you know, they’re motivated to share their product and make it as restrictive as possible in the design. Yeah. So if an architect came to me and I worked for
Matt Allred (43:16.834)
So restrictive, clarify that just a little bit for.
Jeremy Avraham (43:25.33)
X company and they wanted a recommendation, a product recommendation. Well, let’s say I don’t even have the best product for it. I don’t even carry that product. I’m going to recommend the product that I have. And so already you’re starting at you’re already restricting the options for the project. And in addition to that, elevator companies have proprietary equipment.
And what that does is it enables, well, it gives them an advantage for the serviceability of that equipment, which is really where the real money’s at in the elevator industry.
Matt Allred (44:05.26)
True, Well, and if they’ve helped, I’m hearing you say that if they’ve helped advise or help with that specification and they’ve specified something that’s very, very specific or only they have, well then there’s that much more likely that they’re gonna get the bid and they’re gonna get the service and they’ve kind of just helped write it into the plan.
Jeremy Avraham (44:30.936)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that’s the ideal circumstance for the elevator company is they help out the architect. The architect uses them as a basis of design. It restricts the competitive landscape. So that elevator company that helped now has a huge advantage in winning the work.
Matt Allred (44:41.804)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Allred (44:51.99)
Yeah. So I know there’s a lot of growth on the elevator consultant side, right? Do you see a lot of consultants being that person that helps write this back now?
Jeremy Avraham (45:02.028)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, the best thing you can do for an architect is increase flexibility so that they don’t run into those issues because, and I’m just going to rewind just a little bit because I think there’s an important point there that we really want to emphasize is without that flexibility and with less competitive landscape and with a more restrictive specification, while
Matt Allred (45:11.884)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (45:31.318)
What ends up happening oftentimes is a general contractor is getting pricing. The company, the elevator company that is the basis of design usually submits a higher price because they have an advantage. So the GC is now looking, okay, well, this guy is like way higher. I’m going to try to make this other bid work for this other company. That’s not the basis of design.
we’re gonna submit a substitution request. So they do that. And everybody on the architectural side does the best they can to make sure it doesn’t change the design. But guess what it does? It changes the design usually. And it changes little nuances like the submittal approval process. It creates a lot of confusion during that process. Typically that’s when you get the Hemingway novel and that’s what can really impact the project.
Matt Allred (46:13.642)
Wow. Okay.
Matt Allred (46:29.032)
Interesting. So there’s a lot of pain in changing that specification. do you find some architects create a more general specification so that maybe it’s non-proprietary or maybe any of the proprietary fits? Because as long as it meets basic standards, does that happen more often or maybe not often enough? I don’t know.
Jeremy Avraham (46:52.354)
I think that’s their goal. But sometimes elevator companies don’t want to help with certain projects. I remember this during the construction boom we had. There were certain projects, government projects that the elevator company was not interested in pursuing. so there wasn’t really motivation to help on those specific projects.
Matt Allred (46:54.079)
Okay.
Matt Allred (47:01.6)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Allred (47:13.622)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (47:20.792)
The architect sometimes is just really looking for anyone that’ll help them. And when you finally get help, you’re getting help from a company that’s reluctant. And so they’re really kind of making it even more restrictive. they’re like, okay, well, this isn’t within our business interests. So therefore we have to make this really worth our while.
Matt Allred (47:36.419)
wow.
Matt Allred (47:45.238)
So you better specify our stuff and if we’re gonna help you at all, you’re gonna put our name brand on it.
Jeremy Avraham (47:48.685)
Right, right.
Yeah, that happens. I witnessed it happen. And from a business perspective, I’m not dogging on that. I get it. It’s just the reality of where we’re at. And that’s not always the case. The consultant companies, the elevator companies, they’ll recommend.
Matt Allred (48:02.934)
Sure, you get it.
Jeremy Avraham (48:17.432)
stuff that’s within the best interest of the client. It’s not all negative, So I don’t want that to be the message, but oftentimes, each company is advocating for their own business interests.
Matt Allred (48:30.912)
No, absolutely. And they have to. I think the big question is, obviously the GCUs want their best business interests, the architects want theirs, the elevator people want theirs, the owners want theirs. What would it look like if all parties actually won on these projects instead of treating it like a zero sum game?
Jeremy Avraham (48:51.734)
Right. Boy, that would be nice.
Yeah.
Matt Allred (48:58.196)
Have you ever seen it?
Jeremy Avraham (49:02.914)
Very seldom.
It’s hard. It’s hard because of all the variables out there. It just doesn’t, it doesn’t happen. You know, X and a halo, like it’s not just out of nothing. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Allred (49:10.262)
Right, right.
Matt Allred (49:14.476)
Right, doesn’t happen by accident is what it sounds like, right? If it’s going to happen, you’ve got to be proactive, you’ve got to start early, you’ve got to make sure you’ve got somebody giving you the right advice and looking at the right things, and then you can walk that line.
Jeremy Avraham (49:27.395)
Right.
Jeremy Avraham (49:31.95)
Right, yeah, yeah, it’s proactive.
Matt Allred (49:35.636)
Yep. Yep. And obviously everybody’s kind of pulling for their own part, but
Jeremy Avraham (49:36.695)
I mean…
Matt Allred (49:42.668)
It’s it’s I guess trying to say, you know, it’s not that everybody has to lose every time is that everybody can win but but they’ve got to they got to make sure that they’re approaching it right way
Jeremy Avraham (49:56.214)
Yeah, yeah, it needs help. Like the elevator scope, like I said, three to five percent of total project value with a disproportionate impact on the success of the project. Like general contractors, architects, involve specialists for a lot of other trades and elevator trades absolutely certainly deserve the same treatment.
Matt Allred (50:23.724)
Sure, sure. Well, and it sounds like there’s a disproportionate amount because of the cost, because of the coordination, the specialization, everything that’s involved. It’s maybe more important to involve a specialist on the elevator side than some of the others because it’s going to be more costly.
Jeremy Avraham (50:41.742)
Yeah. Yeah. It needs a three dimensional approach because the industry is so small. Like it’s more than just a number, right? It’s is that how busy is this company? You know, to the person’s comment about scheduling, you can have a little bit from a company that’s booked out two years. And so like it doesn’t really matter. Like you have to know what questions ask, but you also have to know the market.
Matt Allred (50:47.841)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (51:10.08)
and be inside of it and live and breathe it.
Matt Allred (51:10.516)
Absolutely Yep, yep, so let’s take a minute and just ask our our audience if you have a question Go ahead and ask it, you know put it in the chat We’ll we’ll take a few minutes and look at those see if any come in or maybe we’ve answered everything. I don’t know but we’ll just pause for just a second
Matt Allred (51:38.016)
All right, so here’s one. It says, are there roles that a general contractor could add to their team that would handle communication between client builder, elevator, and I guess that’s what we talked about with the PM, is that right?
Jeremy Avraham (51:50.732)
Yeah, there are actually companies, I’m not aware of in the US, but there is a company in Canada, one of the biggest construction companies there that has an elevator specialist division. There was a company in Washington actually that had a person that just focused on elevator management.
And he did a great job. He was actually one of the people that, kind of gave me this idea and gave me the final push to do it. I’ll give them a quick shout out here. Gary would it’s good dude. he really helped their company identify those issues because he came from the elevator industry and so he knew what to look for. And so, yeah, you could certainly do that. Like you could, you could do that or.
Matt Allred (52:34.945)
Nice.
Jeremy Avraham (52:51.158)
You could find an entity like lift sync that is our cart and comes in as needed.
Matt Allred (52:58.996)
Right, right. Well, we’ve got another comment here just saying, that’s where a consultant can assist to drive the best outcome for everyone. Cheers from Australia. So got fans in Australia? Right on. Yep. Yeah. Next one, sounds like there are lot of pitfalls, possible pitfalls. Can you describe your ideal communication scenario and timeline?
Jeremy Avraham (53:10.316)
Wow, down under. That’s cool.
Jeremy Avraham (53:23.734)
that’s a huge question. And I also wonder if pitfalls is a pun because I appreciate that if it is. Yeah, I hope I have enough overhead bandwidth to answer this. That’s a that’s a dad pun joke right there with the overhead. If you didn’t get that. Ideally, you would have somebody involved at every step of the process. The the pre-construction coordination.
Matt Allred (53:30.763)
Ha
Matt Allred (53:53.612)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Avraham (53:53.742)
with the architect, the bid leveling with the elevator companies so that you can identify scope gaps. And a really super important piece is the pre-mobilization readiness. That’s somewhere I see people get dinged often. And then they get charged a remobilization fee. And it’s like $2,000 $4,000 depending on the company.
Matt Allred (54:18.328)
Can you clarify that for me? I don’t know what remobilization means.
Jeremy Avraham (54:22.412)
Yeah, so when you select an elevator company for project, they will send you the information that they need in order to mobilize on site. And every company is different. And certain companies are a lot easier to work with than others. But what I’ve seen frequently is the superintendent or PM or salesperson will send this
Matt Allred (54:42.198)
For sure. Yep.
Jeremy Avraham (54:51.968)
maxed out email with as many documents that’ll fit in it as possible that won’t get bounced back. And it’s like, this is what we need. And it’s so boilerplate and generic that if it’s a GC, that’s like a mom and pop, they look at it and they’re like, what, I don’t need, are we installing a traction elevator? Cause it’s got traction elevator stuff. It’s got hydro stuff. It’s got everything under the sun. Cause it’s meant to be standardized and
Matt Allred (55:13.728)
Hahaha
Matt Allred (55:19.734)
Pick your own. Sure.
Jeremy Avraham (55:21.486)
and just so you can send it out to anyone for any product. So that really is a sticking point for GCs and it really hurts the elevator company because like they have a schedule in mind. They don’t want to show up and not have stuff ready and then pull them back and then put them on another job. Like that doesn’t help them. They would rather get a progress payment, get the project done as planned. And so
Having involvement with the pre-mobilization to have somebody go there or even a FaceTime. Okay, yes, is this ready? Do they have power? Do they have a clean and dry and secure space? Are the dimensions right? Are the hoist way embeds, are they in the right place? Is the hoist beam rated properly? Is there two inches?
Is it safe? Like are the barricades there? There’s so many different things that they have to pay attention to and have right. And not only that, they’re, sorry, this is a long answer, but I’m passionate about this. are general contractors that are doing really well and they’re doing things right. And I know a lot of them, they’ve done it for a long time, but they, there’s still opportunity for improvement. Like, you know, I’ve heard people say, well,
Matt Allred (56:28.512)
Yeah, no, I love it.
Jeremy Avraham (56:45.43)
We haven’t had many issues. It’s gone pretty well. And my question is, well, how do you know it couldn’t be better? There’s always room for improvement. And helping somebody with a process, for example, getting the elevator company exactly what they need the first time as close to the hoist way as possible.
and prioritizing that, giving them the rollable access, making their lives easier. Now the mechanics happy, the superintendent’s happy. Like they are going to want to do a good job versus starting off with conflict and something not being ready. And then the GC’s mad about a change order for a, you know, a remobilization or something. So.
Matt Allred (57:25.131)
Right, right.
Matt Allred (57:35.658)
Yeah, yeah. So one question here. I’m not 100 % sure how to interpret it. Any international elevator company used? I’m not sure I can interpret that one, but…
Jeremy Avraham (57:50.806)
Maybe what they mean is, yeah, using a international elevator company here locally.
If that’s what they mean, as long as they have their license and their product has been approved, that’s huge. Like their product has to be approved by the local authorities.
Matt Allred (58:09.004)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Allred (58:13.418)
Right. So let’s, let me throw one more question at you and then we’re kind of running out of time here. But the question is, are there any platforms used for effective coordination? I assume that means software, you know, to, I guess, between all involved parties to coordinate these decisions.
Jeremy Avraham (58:31.82)
There’s no way that’s, if something does exist like that, I’ve never heard of it. There’s very, very unlikely that exists because I remember working for multiple companies and getting invited to these. And the problem is that every general contractor or architect has their platform that they prefer. And so really they,
If they all do that, then we have to like master like five different platforms, you know, on the elevator side. And that’s not practical. So most companies just won’t use it. know, elevator companies will refuse to use it. There are too many out there. They would have to be like a monopolization, you know, just like the platform to use.
Matt Allred (59:16.684)
So it’s not that they don’t exist, it’s just that getting everybody on the same software is not likely to happen, doesn’t happen, won’t happen if everybody’s got their own thing. So last comment from one of our listeners, prior proper planning prevents poor performance. So I think you’ve spoken well to it. Let’s just wrap up real quick here. I’ve got just a few, these are lightning round questions and I just want you to answer these as quick as possible. I’ll just give you three or four before we finish up.
Jeremy Avraham (59:20.684)
Yeah. Yep.
Jeremy Avraham (59:25.58)
Yeah.
Jeremy Avraham (59:37.602)
Bravo.
Matt Allred (59:46.86)
You know, you could answer one or two questions, right? Biggest mistake general contractors make with elevator scope.
Jeremy Avraham (59:58.806)
It’s not having a good scope alignment meeting.
Matt Allred (01:00:05.324)
Okay, one thing architects misunderstand about elevators.
Jeremy Avraham (01:00:11.083)
They are very custom to the space they’re being designed for.
Matt Allred (01:00:19.048)
One thing elevator companies misunderstand about GCs.
Jeremy Avraham (01:00:26.542)
That’s a tough question. I don’t know how to answer that. Pass.
Matt Allred (01:00:30.508)
Okay, biggest hidden cost in elevator problems.
Jeremy Avraham (01:00:36.686)
The biggest hidden cost is the long-term commitment. So that early decision that’s made for the elevator company, you often don’t realize how big of a decision you made until the maintenance comes into play.
Matt Allred (01:00:49.898)
Earliest warning sign a project is headed for trouble.
Jeremy Avraham (01:00:53.166)
There are so many signs. If you can’t get a straight answer from the elevator project manager or superintendent about the crew that will be used for the project.
Matt Allred (01:01:07.148)
Awesome. So Jeremy, one final question. If the right person is listening today, what do want them to rethink after hearing this conversation?
Jeremy Avraham (01:01:16.396)
Yeah, you can do something about the issues that you’ve experienced and it takes a proactive approach.
Matt Allred (01:01:26.86)
Perfect. Well Jeremy, this has been incredibly insightful. I think you put words to things that maybe others hadn’t articulated and maybe you’re feeling. I hear about some of these things when I talk with others, but I appreciate you coming on today and I wish you the best as you continue to alleviate pain and help people through this.
Matt Allred (01:01:48.906)
Yeah, and thank you everyone. This was a lot of fun to have you on here today. If you’ve experienced any kind of pain firsthand through this process, we’d love to hear from you. Please share feedback at ElevatorCareers.net or you can email podcast at ElevatorCareers.net with thoughts, insight, feedback, and we’ll see you on our next episode of the Elevator Careers podcast. Thanks again.